How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

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Konstantin Sol
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How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Good afternoon!

Please clarify. I read books about Buddhism, but a lot of incomprehensible.

It is obvious that it is necessary to work on the mind in the process of practice, to control it, all teachers write about this and many sutras (Noble Eightfold Path, awareness, effort, etc.).
Dhammawuddho Thera. Right Thoughts should also be cultivated to avoid unwholesome thoughts that often arise - for example, thoughts of malice, harm, greed. Right Views and Right Thoughts begin to counteract lust, anger, ignorance - the three vicious roots. To keep these three roots in check, you need to constantly observe your own thoughts and know the real motives that underlie our speech and our actions
Dhammawuddho Thera. Knowing any sensible object, feeling automatically arises. Up to this point, we have no control, but starting from here, we can decide for ourselves how we should react. This is where the will comes into play and kamma (intentional action) is created.
Dhammawuddho Thera.
Taming the mind. The untrained mind is wild and restless, like an untamed horse. It must be tamed before it can be useful. The Buddha compared the ordinary mind to six animals44 tied together and pulling each other in different directions. They must be tied to a pole to be harnessed and tamed. In the same way, we attach our mind to one single object of meditation instead of allowing the mind to aspire to the objects of the six senses. Over time, it will establish itself on the object of meditation. This is the only way to tame the mind and gain control over it.
But how does this happen if there is no independent "I", the owner, the manager? Who develops the mind?

Also:
Ajahn Brahm Years ago, I gave the "runaway bus" metaphor. It's like you're riding through life on a bus and having pleasant and unpleasant experiences. You think it's your fault; or you think the driver is at fault. “Why doesn’t the driver go to pleasant places and stay there for a long time? Why does he always go where the territory is unpleasant and stay there for a long time? You want to finally find the one who controls this journey called "my life". Why is it that you endure so much pain and suffering? You want to understand where is the driver, the driver of these five aggregates: body, feeling, perception, mentality and consciousness, the driver of you. After a lot of meditating and listening to the Dhamma, you finally get up to where the driver's seat is and it turns out to be empty!
But it is obvious that there are plans for life, they can be built. How does this happen? How does thinking, planning take place, mental constructs, without the "Self", the manager, the driver?

It is also argued that the body is "not ours", not in our power, not under our control, thoughts are not under control. But it is obvious that we control the body and thoughts. We can act with the body, strengthen it. We can remember what we want, focus on the right thought, of our choice. How does it happen then?

Please tell me.
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Goofaholix
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Goofaholix »

The point of the not self teaching is that there is no permanent fixed self, what we generally regard as self is changing according to causes and conditions just like everything else, therefore we don't attach to it.

One could equally ask how does the sun shine or rain come and go without a self making it happen, how does a car go without a self to make it go, or a computer perform calculations etc without a self controlling it.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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cappuccino
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by cappuccino »

Goofaholix wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:06 am The point of the not self teaching is that there is no permanent fixed self
no self is wrong, since it implies annihilation


not self does not imply annihilation
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Goofaholix
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Goofaholix »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:42 am no self is wrong, since it implies annihilation

not self does not imply annihilation
Unless you can point to something I said or asked in the OP that this is in direct response to how about not flogging this dead horse again today?
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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cappuccino
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by cappuccino »

Goofaholix wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:54 am
cappuccino wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:42 am no self is wrong, since it implies annihilation
Unless you can point to something I said that this is in direct response to
Don’t you understand your view
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Goofaholix
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Goofaholix »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:57 am Don’t you understand your view
What does it have to do with the OP? Can you attempt to respond to the question asked? Or is there no slogan for that?
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

The following link would help in contemplating from Without-the-Self perspective.



https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/no ... dasa/15030
clarifying on the issues like:



  • There is . . .
    • No
      • I
        Ego
        Self
        Soul
        Atta
        Atman


    And,

    • CONSCIOUSNESS is NOT Self nor Soul.
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Post by sunnat »

The training is gradual. Don’t take instructions meant for someone getting close to the (empty) drivers seat as relevant for someone sitting in the rear of the bus, oblivious to the driver. Reading there is no driver may only confuse when the reality of this moment is that there obviously is a driver. You only get to truly know by walking the path.
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cappuccino
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by cappuccino »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:05 pm But how does this happen if there is no independent "I", the owner, the manager? Who develops the mind?
"Then is there no self?"

A second time, the Blessed One was silent.

If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness].

Ananda Sutta: To Ananda
(On Self, No Self, and Not-self)
asahi
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by asahi »

Self in buddhism was referred to Atman or Atma , an immaterial part of a human being resided in the body . It Cannot be Destroyed , Permanent , Unchanging , Independent and Self-Mastery . That cannot be found if you examine or investigate thoroughly on this physical body and the other four aggregates .
No bashing No gossiping
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nothingworthgrasping
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by nothingworthgrasping »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:05 pm Please tell me.
You don't. You have to develop a healthy self first. And then there will be a point where the need of a self is also gone.

About anatta as a training, the five aggregates are to be regarded as "not mine, not me, not myself" in order to grow disgust, disillusionment, dispassion, fading away, cessation, and finally letting go.
AN 4.159 wrote: "Sister, this body is produced by food. Relying on food, you should give up food.

This body is produced by craving. Relying on craving, you should give up craving.

This body is produced by conceit. Relying on conceit, you should give up conceit.

This body is produced by sex. The Buddha spoke of breaking off everything to do with sex."
SN 51.15 wrote: “What do you think, brahmin? Have you ever had a desire to walk to the park, but when you arrived at the park, the corresponding desire faded away?”

“Yes, sir.”

“Have you ever had the energy to walk to the park, but when you arrived at the park, the corresponding energy faded away?”

“Yes, sir.”

“Have you ever had the idea to walk to the park, but when you arrived at the park, the corresponding idea faded away?”

“Yes, sir.”

“Have you ever inquired regarding a walk to the park, but when you arrived at the park, the corresponding inquiry faded away?”

“Yes, sir.”

“In the same way, take a mendicant who is perfected—with defilements ended, who has completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their own true goal, utterly ended the fetters of rebirth, and is rightly freed through enlightenment. They formerly had the desire to attain perfection, but when they attained perfection the corresponding desire faded away. They formerly had the energy to attain perfection, but when they attained perfection the corresponding energy faded away. They formerly had the idea to attain perfection, but when they attained perfection the corresponding idea faded away. They formerly inquired regarding attaining perfection, but when they attained perfection the corresponding inquiry faded away. What do you think, brahmin? This being the case, is the path endless or finite?”
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nothingworthgrasping
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by nothingworthgrasping »

asahi wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:26 am Self in buddhism was referred to Atman or Atma , an immaterial part of a human being resided in the body . It Cannot be Destroyed , Permanent , Unchanging , Independent and Self-Mastery . That cannot be found if you examine or investigate thoroughly on this physical body and the other four aggregates .
Are you in the wrong forum? This is Theravada Buddhism, not Upanishadic Hinduism.
MN 38 wrote: “The Buddha said to him, “Is it really true, Sāti, that you have such a harmful misconception: ‘As I understand the Buddha’s teachings, it is this very same consciousness that roams and transmigrates, not another’?”

“Absolutely, sir. As I understand the Buddha’s teachings, it is this very same consciousness that roams and transmigrates, not another.”

“Sāti, what is that consciousness?”

“Sir, it is he who speaks and feels and experiences the results of good and bad deeds in all the different realms.”

“Silly man, who on earth have you ever known me to teach in that way? Haven’t I said in many ways that consciousness is dependently originated, since consciousness does not arise without a cause? But still you misrepresent me by your wrong grasp, harm yourself, and make much bad karma. This will be for your lasting harm and suffering.”
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by BrokenBones »

asahi wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:26 am Self in buddhism was referred to Atman or Atma , an immaterial part of a human being resided in the body . It Cannot be Destroyed , Permanent , Unchanging , Independent and Self-Mastery . That cannot be found if you examine or investigate thoroughly on this physical body and the other four aggregates .
This is true... but to declare there is NO self is a View that needs to be abandoned.

Imagine that I believe there is a rat in my house... I search every room and nook & cranny and find no rat... I can declare there is no rat here... but as for there being no rat anywhere... I wouldn't declare this and in point of fact I have no interest in anything outside of my room... I have no view about it... a bit stretched but it helps me understand the Buddha's teaching.
SarathW
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by SarathW »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:05 pm Please tell me.
It is gradual training.
First you eliminate only the " self view"
Then you eliminate the other nine fetters gradually.
It is like a lamp consuming the oil and finally extinguish.
Last edited by retrofuturist on Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Verbatim full quote of OP removed
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Thanks everyone!
But this is the foundation of the foundations, the essence of the doctrine. Whatever text I take, everywhere there is a reference to anatta. Are there really no examples of how skandhas work, how it happens, without an independent manager?
The Buddha said that if there are doubts and worries, then you need to dispel them with knowledge and the ability to ask questions and get answers.

It turns out that since everything is conditioned, we are something like automata, computers. Feelings come automatically, mind thinks automatically, will is formed automatically. We cannot influence the process, we can only observe. Is this what teaching leads to?
Then how to start realizing the noble eightfold path? How to deal with passion (practice morality)? How to eliminate thoughts of harm? How to concentrate in dhyana? We are only watching, not managing.
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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