How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

[Konstantin Sol]

And what, really thoughts appear only because of conditions? And man himself can not create a thought?

[Konstantin Sol]

It turns out that since everything is conditioned, we are something like automata, computers. Feelings come automatically, mind thinks automatically, will is formed automatically. We cannot influence the process, we can only observe. Is this what teaching leads to?
Then how to realize the noble eightfold path? How to deal with passion? How to eliminate thoughts of harm? How to concentrate in dhyana?

We can influence the process, the teaching of the Buddha would be pointless if that were not the case.

Causes and conditions lead to what we experience but we have a degree of choice in how we react, and we can create conditions for better choices in future.

Causes and conditions dictate which cards you are dealt but you can choose how to play your hand, and learn to play our hand better in future.

In my opinion, it says the same thing as I said above. Thoughts come and go. We cannot influence them. But how to act, make a decision, we can. What the participant wanted to say.

[wenjaforever]

Why is joy extinct in 3rd jhana? Does joy become irrelevant when you achieve omniscience? The ability to know everything at will even without telepathy?

[Lal]

@Konstantin Sol
Your original question was the following if I understood correctly:

The Buddha taught that one must tame one's mind and cultivate the path to Nibbana (i.e., to stop the rebirth process.)
So, you asked: "But how does this happen if there is no independent "I", the owner, the manager? Who develops the mind?"

The problem is with the following ASSUMPTION that many people have:
Anatta means "there is no "self" or a "doer."

The Buddha never implied that meaning. Anatta DOES NOT mean that there is no "person" (say "Konstantin") living his life.
- The Buddha only thought that there is no "soul-like entity" going from one life to another, i.e., there is no "permanent self."
- Everything about you (appearance, thoughts, hopes, dreams, etc. changes with time.)
- We attach to things in this world and strive for wealth and sensual pleasures because we think we can become happy in the long term.
- However, "long term" includes future lives in Buddha's teachings. The problem is that your efforts to gain material things in this life inevitably lead to "unfortunate births" in the future. That is what Paticca Samuppada explains. That is the "anatta" or "unfruitful nature" of this world. Anicca, dukkha, and anatta are three a characteristic of this world."
- I will be explaining this in detail in the following thread in upcoming posts:
viewtopic.php?p=710430#p710430
- I understand that this explanation contradicts the "standard interpretation" of "anatta as no-self." So, it will need a detailed explanation. Thus, I will not engage in more discussions here. But I will monitor the comments here and try to address them in my future posts.
- Note also the following: Nibbana means to stop the rebirth process, as I mentioned above. That is possible because no "soul-like entity" goes from birth to birth (like reincarnation in Hinduism). There is a big difference between reincarnation and "rebirth in Buddhism." Rebirth takes place according to root causes (lobha, dosa, moha) and prevailing conditions at the moment of death. That is what Paticca Samuppada explains.

[Ontheway]

Anatta isn't translated as "unfruitful nature" though.

[Goofaholix]

In my opinion, it says the same thing as I said above. Thoughts come and go. We cannot influence them. But how to act, make a decision, we can. What the participant wanted to say.

This

Thoughts come and go. We cannot influence them. But how to act, make a decision, we can.

Is very different to this

we are something like automata, computers. Feelings come automatically, mind thinks automatically, will is formed automatically. We cannot influence the process, we can only observe.

[pegembara]

And what, really thoughts appear only because of conditions? And man himself can not create a thought?

Thought created man, the thinker.
Without the activity of thinking, there are no thoughts or thinkers.
You can only realize this when thinking has stopped.
'You' then become 'witness' to the thinking process as it were and stop identifying with those thoughts!
If you are sharp enough, you also witness the arising of intentions, feelings, and many other things.

You don't control the mind. The mind controls you by making you think that you are in control.

[cappuccino]

You can only realize this when thinking has stopped.

not from Buddha?

[Ceisiwr]

Why is joy extinct in 3rd jhana? Does joy become irrelevant when you achieve omniscience? The ability to know everything at will even without telepathy?

Because its a disturbance.

[pegembara]

You can only realize this when thinking has stopped.

not from Buddha?

Ok. You realize this when you stay with the knowing...
Knowing what? All that arises and passes is not me, mine, or myself.

"If anyone were to say, 'The intellect is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable. The arising & falling away of the intellect are discerned. And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'The intellect is the self.' So the intellect is not-self. If anyone were to say, 'Ideas are the self,' that wouldn't be tenable... Thus the intellect is not-self and ideas are not-self. If anyone were to say, 'Consciousness at the intellect is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable... Thus the intellect is not-self, ideas are not-self, consciousness at the intellect is not-self. If anyone were to say, 'Contact at the intellect is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable... Thus the intellect is not-self, ideas are not-self, consciousness at the intellect is not-self, contact at the intellect is not-self. If anyone were to say, 'Feeling is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable... Thus the intellect is not-self, ideas are not-self, consciousness at the intellect is not-self, contact at the intellect is not-self, feeling is not self. If anyone were to say, 'Craving is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable. The arising & falling away of craving are discerned. And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'Craving is the self.' Thus the intellect is not-self, ideas are not-self, consciousness at the intellect is not-self, contact at the intellect is not-self, feeling is not self, craving is not-self.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

"One assumes about the intellect that 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' One assumes about ideas... One assumes about consciousness at the intellect... One assumes about contact at the intellect... One assumes about feeling... One assumes about craving that 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.'

"Now, this is the path of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification. One assumes about the eye that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.' One assumes about forms... One assumes about consciousness at the eye... One assumes about contact at the eye... One assumes about feeling... One assumes about craving that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.'

[cappuccino]

All that arises and passes is not me, mine, or myself.

[Konstantin Sol]

And what, really thoughts appear only because of conditions? And man himself can not create a thought?

Thought created man, the thinker.
Without the activity of thinking, there are no thoughts or thinkers.
You can only realize this when thinking has stopped.
'You' then become 'witness' to the thinking process as it were and stop identifying with those thoughts!
If you are sharp enough, you also witness the arising of intentions, feelings, and many other things.

You don't control the mind. The mind controls you by making you think that you are in control.

if you do not control the mind, then what is it?
right effort does not exist?

.Dhammawuddho Thera.
Taming the mind. The untrained mind is wild and restless, like an untamed horse. It must be tamed before it can be useful. The Buddha compared the ordinary mind to six animals44 tied together and pulling each other in different directions. They must be tied to a pole to be harnessed and tamed. In the same way, we attach our mind to one single object of meditation instead of allowing the mind to aspire to the objects of the six senses. Over time, it will establish itself on the object of meditation. This is the only way to tame the mind and gain control over it.

The Noble Eightfold Path
The Way to the End of Suffering
by Bhikkhu Bodhi
By applying these five methods with skill and discretion, the Buddha says, one becomes a master of all the pathways of thought. One is no longer the subject of the mind but its master. Whatever thought one wants to think, that one will think. Whatever thought one does not want to think, that one will not think. Even if unwholesome thoughts occasionally arise, one can dispel them immediately, just as quickly as a red-hot pan will turn to steam a few chance drops of water.

[Konstantin Sol]

@Konstantin Sol
Your original question was the following if I understood correctly:

The Buddha taught that one must tame one's mind and cultivate the path to Nibbana (i.e., to stop the rebirth process.)
So, you asked: "But how does this happen if there is no independent "I", the owner, the manager? Who develops the mind?"

The problem is with the following ASSUMPTION that many people have:
Anatta means "there is no "self" or a "doer."

The Buddha never implied that meaning. Anatta DOES NOT mean that there is no "person" (say "Konstantin") living his life.
- The Buddha only thought that there is no "soul-like entity" going from one life to another, i.e., there is no "permanent self."
- Everything about you (appearance, thoughts, hopes, dreams, etc. changes with time.)
- We attach to things in this world and strive for wealth and sensual pleasures because we think we can become happy in the long term.
- However, "long term" includes future lives in Buddha's teachings. The problem is that your efforts to gain material things in this life inevitably lead to "unfortunate births" in the future. That is what Paticca Samuppada explains. That is the "anatta" or "unfruitful nature" of this world. Anicca, dukkha, and anatta are three a characteristic of this world."
- I will be explaining this in detail in the following thread in upcoming posts:
viewtopic.php?p=710430#p710430
- I understand that this explanation contradicts the "standard interpretation" of "anatta as no-self." So, it will need a detailed explanation. Thus, I will not engage in more discussions here. But I will monitor the comments here and try to address them in my future posts.
- Note also the following: Nibbana means to stop the rebirth process, as I mentioned above. That is possible because no "soul-like entity" goes from birth to birth (like reincarnation in Hinduism). There is a big difference between reincarnation and "rebirth in Buddhism." Rebirth takes place according to root causes (lobha, dosa, moha) and prevailing conditions at the moment of death. That is what Paticca Samuppada explains.

Thank you

[Konstantin Sol]

In my opinion, it says the same thing as I said above. Thoughts come and go. We cannot influence them. But how to act, make a decision, we can. What the participant wanted to say.

This

Thoughts come and go. We cannot influence them. But how to act, make a decision, we can.

Is very different to this

we are something like automata, computers. Feelings come automatically, mind thinks automatically, will is formed automatically. We cannot influence the process, we can only observe.

Well, of course.

But I was talking about something else.
That is, it turns out that all dhammas, skandhas are conditioned. So thoughts are also conditioned. Right?
It turns out that we do not think a thought, but a thought itself is a thought. What thoughts appear is completely independent of us. That is, it turns out that we should not and cannot do anything and initiate, but simply look at thoughts, wait for thoughts to appear, choose the right one from them and act in accordance with it, or get rid of unnecessary ones and not act. Is that what you wanted to say?

And one more question. What does it mean? Can you tell me more?

Causes and conditions dictate which cards you are dealt but you can choose how to play your hand, and learn to play our hand better in future.

[Konstantin Sol]

Abhidhamma in practice.
Dr. N.K.G. mendis
Chitta, cetasiki and rupa are the conditioned dhammas. They arise due to conditions and disappear when the conditions cease to support them

What does it mean? Can anyone provide examples? What are the conditions?