How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

[asahi]

This is true... but to declare there is NO self is a View that needs to be abandoned.

i didnt declare there is no self , why did you say about declaring no self in the post forwarded to me then .

I was merely using your concise summation of not self & pointing out that some 'people' can go astray if they hold on to the View that there is no self

I see

[mjaviem]

...

То, как все работает, не является предметом учений Будды. Он не учил механике мира. Это не имеет отношения к цели. Всякое случается. Как вы думаете, почему должен быть независимый менеджер?

How then are decisions made?

It's not relevant to the goal. Explaining how your automatas and computers decide it's not relevant either. If you were curious about how the wind is made you would look for an answer not in the Buddhist teachings. In the same way, don't expect to find an answer on how decisions are made in the Buddha's teachings.

What is relevant and we need to understand is that decisions are not us, not ours, not ourselves. "I decide" is just craving at play, it's only clinging. This becoming is dependently originated and inevitably leads to suffering. The teaching is about ending the "I decide".

[Konstantin Sol]

Now I'm going to ask about cause and effect, if you don't mind.

Have I understood the teaching correctly?
1) Perceptions, sensations, feelings come completely automatically, their awareness is weak, practically without consciousness. Here we cannot influence unless we close all five senses from the outside world.

2) Further, some minor actions and decisions also usually occur automatically, awareness of them is weak. For example, we are crossing the road - the green light is on - we are going. Or bypassing obstacles on the way.
It is easy to understand these two stages that there is no "self" in them, here the action takes place, as it were, on the periphery.

3) But when some problem arises that requires thinking and solving, the thought and the solution will not appear automatically, on their own, you need to “participate” in the reflections. Make an effort, remember some facts, compare, evaluate, draw a conclusion.
For example.
Anger (feeling) has come. Getting rid of anger (control) will not arise by itself, automatically, you need to “work hard”, make efforts.
Also, dhyana will not arise by itself, automatically, we need to “work hard”, make efforts.
Also, the solution of a learning task in physics will not arise by itself, automatically, you need to make an effort.

Or everything happens completely automatically, the mind decides everything automatically, you need not be aware and not make efforts? But in my opinion this is not confirmed in practice. Learning task in physics will not be solved by itself, dhyana will not arise by itself.

It turns out that there is a non-automatic, conscious process of thinking, decisions, control, etc., but without the "self".

Am I thinking right? Or am I wrong?

[cappuccino]

I understand that there is a dependent, transient "self".

"Now then, Venerable Gotama, is there a self?"

When this was said, the Blessed One was silent.

Ananda, if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self — were to answer that there is a self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of eternalism [the view that there is an eternal, unchanging soul].

Ananda Sutta: To Ananda

[robertk]

Now I'm going to ask about cause and effect, if you don't mind.

Have I understood the teaching correctly?
1) Perceptions, sensations, feelings come completely automatically, their awareness is weak, practically without consciousness. Here we cannot influence unless we close all five senses from the outside world.

Consciousness arises along with other factors including feeling and perception- but they are not the same.

[robertk]

Now I'm going to ask about cause and effect, if you don't mind.



3) But when some problem arises that requires thinking and solving, the thought and the solution will not appear automatically, on their own, you need to “participate” in the reflections. Make an effort, remember some facts, compare, evaluate, draw a conclusion.
For example.
Anger (feeling) has come. Getting rid of anger (control) will not arise by itself, automatically, you need to “work hard”, make efforts.
Also, dhyana will not arise by itself, automatically, we need to “work hard”, make efforts.
Also, the solution of a learning task in physics will not arise by itself, automatically, you need to make an effort.

Or everything happens completely automatically, the mind decides everything automatically, you need not be aware and not make efforts? But in my opinion this is not confirmed in practice. Learning task in physics will not be solved by itself, dhyana will not arise by itself.

It turns out that there is a non-automatic, conscious process of thinking, decisions, control, etc., but without the "self".

Am I thinking right? Or am I wrong?

It might be useful to define these elements in bold: "you need.." What exactly is the you?

[cappuccino]

What exactly is the you?

Aren’t you asking

[Goofaholix]

1) Perceptions, sensations, feelings come completely automatically, their awareness is weak, practically without consciousness. Here we cannot influence unless we close all five senses from the outside world.

I'm not sure what you mean by "close all five senses from the outside world". If we are practicing intensive mediation then sense de3priovation is a part of it, part of the idea is become aware of the things you describe on a more subtle level. Either way we are interested in being more aware of the sense contacts with the outside world, and the sense contact with the inner world ie the mind.

2) Further, some minor actions and decisions also usually occur automatically, awareness of them is weak. For example, we are crossing the road - the green light is on - we are going. Or bypassing obstacles on the way.
It is easy to understand these two stages that there is no "self" in them, here the action takes place, as it were, on the periphery.

If we recognise that awareness of awareness of day to day activities is weak, often because we think its not important enough to put effort into being aware during those activities, then we apply mindfulness to improve awareness.

Anger (feeling) has come. Getting rid of anger (control) will not arise by itself, automatically, you need to “work hard”, make efforts.
Also, dhyana will not arise by itself, automatically, we need to “work hard”, make efforts.

Yes

But in my opinion this is not confirmed in practice. Learning task in physics will not be solved by itself, dhyana will not arise by itself.

Yes

[pegembara]

It turns out that there is a non-automatic, conscious process of thinking, decisions, control, etc., but without the "self".

Am I thinking right? Or am I wrong?

All actions, planning and intentions relate to the body. You plan things for the long term welfare of the body which you take as yours.
Getting an education, a job, having a family, retirement planning. These are things that relate to self as the body.

The mind is another thing.

[mjaviem]

...
How then are decisions made?

I replied but that post got lost in moderation I think. I was saying that how decisions are made is not relevant to the goal. If you want to know how the wind is made you wouldn't look for an answer in the Buddhist teachings. In the same way you shouldn't look for an answer about how decisions are made in the Buddhist teachings.

What we need to understand is that decisions are not us, not ours, not ourselves. "I decide" is simply craving at play,. But all this teaching about non self which is easily accessible to us is part of the higher training and not to be taken lightly and isolated from other teachings.

[SteRo]

But how does this happen if there is no independent "I", the owner, the manager? Who develops the mind?

Whether "in reality" there is an independent "I" or not does not matter because your sense of self obviously appears to you even if only momentarily. Thus this sense of self (or "I") can be applied accordingly independent of speculative thoughts about whether this appearing sense is grounded on an ontological reality or not.

[Konstantin Sol]

Thank you very much to all the participants of the conversation!

Ok, the result is this:
A "conditional individual" can make decisions, create, solve problems, make plans, think, remember, etc. All these processes are not denied by Buddhism, but they are not discussed in the teaching either, since they are not related to enlightenmentt. All of them can occur without the feeling of "self".
Amazingly.

That is, the "conditional individual" is the five aggregates. He himself is physical and mental conditions and the process of change, and at the same time can influence it, albeit partially. And also follow. That is, when we consciously make a decision, we are thoughts and decision-making, as well as the process of thinking. It is an impersonal but not automatic process. It does not happen by itself, you need "awareness", "participation", "make efforts". And all this, too, without "self".
As the Venerable Walpola Rahula wrote:

As Buddhaghosa says:
"Manifest suffering exists, but one who suffers cannot be found;
There are things to do, but not to find the one who does."
There is no immovable mover behind the movement. It's only movement. It is not true to say that life moves, but life itself is movement. Life and movement are not two different things. In other words, there is no thinker behind the thought. The thought itself is the thinker...
...When you think "I am doing this", you become self-conscious and then you do not live in action, but live in the idea "I am", and therefore your labors are wasted. You must completely forget and lose yourself in what you are doing. When the speaker is self-aware and thinks, "I am speaking to the audience," his speech is disturbed and his train of thought is disturbed. But when he forgets himself in his speech, in his subject, he is at his best, he speaks well and expounds clearly.

Did I understand correctly?

And further.
At the first stages, you should not delve deeply into ideas and try to understand "how it really is." You can start practicing with your own understanding. If there is "self", then this is normal.
Please tell me how to continue the practice then? To read or not to read?
And it is desirable in practice to constantly consult with the sangha whether the understanding of the teaching is correct.

[Konstantin Sol]

Now I'm going to ask about cause and effect, if you don't mind.



3) But when some problem arises that requires thinking and solving, the thought and the solution will not appear automatically, on their own, you need to “participate” in the reflections. Make an effort, remember some facts, compare, evaluate, draw a conclusion.
For example.
Anger (feeling) has come. Getting rid of anger (control) will not arise by itself, automatically, you need to “work hard”, make efforts.
Also, dhyana will not arise by itself, automatically, we need to “work hard”, make efforts.
Also, the solution of a learning task in physics will not arise by itself, automatically, you need to make an effort.

Or everything happens completely automatically, the mind decides everything automatically, you need not be aware and not make efforts? But in my opinion this is not confirmed in practice. Learning task in physics will not be solved by itself, dhyana will not arise by itself.

It turns out that there is a non-automatic, conscious process of thinking, decisions, control, etc., but without the "self".

Am I thinking right? Or am I wrong?

It might be useful to define these elements in bold: "you need.." What exactly is the you?

Right. What am I?

[robertk]

N
Am I thinking right? Or am I wrong?

What exactly is the you?

Right. What am I?

You already have some reading in Abhidhamma, and you know that the Buddha's teaching says that all elements are not self, so this won't be too new.
In Dhamma the you, the I are convenient referents, shorthand terms, designations for what is really exists. And what exists are only momentary combinations of mentatilty and materiality. However because of the continuity of the arising and ceasing there is the illusion of things remaining.

How this relates to your questions is rather important as even effort is completely momentary and their is no self who can decide to have right effort (or wrong effort for that matter). Every moment is conditioned by various conditions- which themselves are conditioned.
And it this understanding that leads to weakening the idea of self.

[Konstantin Sol]

What exactly is the you?

Right. What am I?

You already have some reading in Abhidhamma, and you know that the Buddha's teaching says that all elements are not self, so this won't be too new.
In Dhamma the you, the I are convenient referents, shorthand terms, designations for what is really exists. And what exists are only momentary combinations of mentatilty and materiality. However because of the continuity of the arising and ceasing there is the illusion of things remaining.

How this relates to your questions is rather important as even effort is completely momentary and their is no self who can decide to have right effort (or wrong effort for that matter). Every moment is conditioned by various conditions- which themselves are conditioned.
And it this understanding that leads to weakening the idea of self.

Well thank you.