How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

[Konstantin Sol]

Thank you all for a lot of things to think about.

[Konstantin Sol]

[...]

Just my 50 cents:

In my opinion, at a practical level, the fact that your discursive thoughts are not yours simply means that you do not have total control over them and therefore, sooner or later, they will cause you suffering.

You can't choose which thoughts are presented to you but you can choose welcome, delight, entertain them or not.

With respect to thoughts the mind presents you with one thought after another and you choose which ones welcome, delight, entertain (which ones you cling for). If you don't welcome, delight, entertain a though this though just decays, ceases, and the mind simply presents you with another "maybe more interesting" to try, until you welcome, delight, entertain one and you follow this "though stream", in your terms you cannot choose what thought your mind presents to you, but in its terms yes, and how can you choose what thoughts your mind presents to you? Well, as Buddha explained:

If when an unwholesome thought arises you don't welcome, delight, entertain it (if you don't get involved, if you don't follow that thought.), the mind knows that you haven't welcome, delight, entertain this kind of thought (You aren't interested, mind tries to help, mind suggest to you things that in the past you where interested to (cars thoughts, women thoughts, money thoughts, ill will thoughts ... whatever you were interested in the past in), mind is already tamed, you have tamed it since your were worn without knowing, Buddha explains you how to properly tame your six animals) and in the future it will present fewer thoughts of this type to you. By the way all day, must be done all day no just when sited, you don't tame a dog one hour a day and the rest of the day allow it to be wild.

Don't fight with your thoughts either, don't try to eliminate or change them, if an unwholesome thought has arisen just let it go, don't give it energy, don't cling on it and it will disappear in seconds by itself because it hasn't been welcome, delight, entertain. It is not your responsibility what thoughts arise, it is your responsibility which ones you welcome, delight, entertain. Fighting with them is a way of welcoming, delighting, entertaining.


35.247. The Simile of the Six Animals : https://suttacentral.net/sn35.247/en/bo ... ight=false

For example, the mind of someone who really likes cars will present many thoughts about cars because mind knows that these thoughts have a good chance to be welcome, delight, entertain (just trying to help, mind just doing what has being unknowingly tamed to do since he was born). And the mind is even more intelligent, it knows that when you are hungry the thoughts of food will be welcomed and will present you with many, when you are depressed the negative thoughts will be welcomed and will present you with many... the six animals work with paticcasamuppada but this is another issue.

That's why Buddha talks about taming the mind like someone who trains an animal, you can't control the animal, the animal does what it wants, but if you know how it works, if you know the nature of the animal, if you know how to tame it, you can train it to behave as you want. An once the animal is tamed you can just sit and relax a little bit, knowing is not going to do anything unwholesome.

Your discursive thoughts are like the youtube algorithm, it presents you with suggestions and if it sees that you consume videos of a certain thematic, in the future it presents you with more suggestions of this thematic (albeit semi-randomly), then you are not the owner of the youtube algorithm but it can be tamed by you, if you want it to just present you videos of dhamma, click only on the videos about dhamma, even if it presents you with some suggestive video of another thematic or a click bate, don't click, only videos of dhamma, and after a few weeks or months you will see that almost everything that is presented to you is related to dhamma, no unwholesome suggestions, no need to resist the temptation to click in unwholesome suggestions, youtube algorithm tamed.

Summary regarding the discursive thoughts you have to see the reality, you do not choose them, they are presented to you and you decide if welcome, delight, entertain them. Also you are not your thoughts, people are usually totally identified with their own thoughts, like in a trance, like "sleep", like in an "illusion", that's why some people call to unidentified with thoughts "awakening" (you can google to check if you are already "awaken").


If you want to tame your mind (or the six animals) them Buddha explains how to do it, and when mind is trained only wholesome thoughts will be presented to you. And if you continue and not even welcome, delight, entertain the wholesome toughs,a moment will come that will simply present you with fewer and fewer thoughts, you will see that there are gaps between thoughts, at the beginning of seconds, minutes... (to have less discursive thoughts in my opinion is not a goal in practice, people gets obsessed with this, it will happen just naturally when it has to happen)

Hint: I talk about taming the thoughts because it seems to interest you the most, but in my opinion to unidentified with thoughts, body, feelings ... should be done first, it's hard to tame thoughts when there is no "space", when you're fully identified whit them.

If you have not managed to get the first fetter to fall, I would not complicate myself with more complex theories about anatta and just will practice to make the first fetter fell to unidentified myself with thoughts before trying to tame them.

And in my opinion everything is logical.
A person begins to study Buddhism. The first step is to meditate and learn the basic truths (four noble truths). On the second pass the stage of morality (volitional efforts). Next comes the right effort. All of them require some manager who will be engaged in curbing the mind. Therefore, a beginner has a question: how to practice if there is no manager. And the practices of disidentification are already the last stages.

[Konstantin Sol]

I will try to explain this as I saw it, from the perspective of a beginner.
You are told to "practice morality, subdue the mind, make an effort." And at the same time you are told "there is no manager, you are made up of dhammas, dhammas (including efforts) appear by themselves, depending on the conditions." So where do you get the effort? Wait until they appear on their own, depending on the conditions?
And you go into shock.

Can you explain how efforts are created and sustained?

[robertk]

I will try to explain this as I saw it, from the perspective of a beginner.
You are told to "practice morality, subdue the mind, make an effort." And at the same time you are told "there is no manager, you are made up of dhammas, dhammas (including efforts) appear by themselves, depending on the conditions." So where do you get the effort? Wait until they appear on their own, depending on the conditions?
And you go into shock.

Can you explain how efforts are created and sustained?

This confusion is simply the way it is now, and there can be direct knowing of that confusion as conditioned, anatta. And that is right effort.

Or there might not be, and that is conditioned too.

The only way is learning what the Buddha really taught and then seeing how absolutely true it is, moment by moment.
Then there is little by little, a turning away from self view and the path becomes clear(er).

[PeterC86]

I will try to explain this as I saw it, from the perspective of a beginner.
You are told to "practice morality, subdue the mind, make an effort." And at the same time you are told "there is no manager, you are made up of dhammas, dhammas (including efforts) appear by themselves, depending on the conditions." So where do you get the effort? Wait until they appear on their own, depending on the conditions?
And you go into shock.

Can you explain how efforts are created and sustained?

Hi Konstantin Sol,

I planned to write an extensive post, but then I luckily saw that I had already replied in this topic, but either you missed it, or you found my post not worthy of a reply, so I am going to keep this short, but I will post nonetheless, because you are reaching beyond what the Theravada doctrine can explain. I will refer you to this topic. I can recommend you to read what is written in that topic, and the refered works of Buddhadasa. Whatever you do with this advice is up to you.

The Buddha taught liberation from rebirth and suffering. Buddhadasa explains that when anatta is fully understood, one will discover that there is no rebirth. The teaching of the Buddha must be seen in respect of the prevailing belief in rebirth at the time the Buddha was alive in that corner of the world. It is rather ironic, and tragic at the same time, that people who didn't believe in rebirth before they came across the Buddha's teaching, start(ed) to believe in rebirth due to not understanding the teaching. This is mainly caused by Buddhist schools that sprouted out of the belief that Nibbana is the end of all rebirths, hence the founders and followers of these schools still cling(ed) to rebirth. Whereas the Buddha taught that rebirth is only caused by a belief in an atta (self), so when one has understood anatta, one realizes that there is no rebirth.

All the best to you.

Warm regards,
Peter

[RobertoAnces]

And in my opinion everything is logical.
A person begins to study Buddhism. The first step is to meditate and learn the basic truths (four noble truths). On the second pass the stage of morality (volitional efforts). Next comes the right effort. All of them require some manager who will be engaged in curbing the mind. Therefore, a beginner has a question: how to practice if there is no manager. And the practices of disidentification are already the last stages.

You have to find your path, just some thoughts that help me but i don't know if they can help you:

Buddha said that you had to use craving to abandon craving, if we are beginners it is impossible not to crave, so lets cave for liberation.

A beginner has thoughts, you can't no thought, so let's use thoughts to abandon thoughts, let's thought in liberation.

A beginner has a self, so let's use the self to abandon self, you have manager use your manager to "undo" your manager ...

We cannot jump directly to no craving, no self, no manager .... We have to use what we already have to gradually discover realities and they must be discover in order and little by little, we can not jump to the conclusion without understanding foundings. we can't understand nuclear physics if we are in the kinder garden, we need foundations in mathematics first, is a too big jump to go for kinder garden understanding to physics understanding.

What your are asking is something like free will philosophic problem ... it is an interesting problem but practice may be is more down to earth at the beginning, unless your practice is to do philosophy that is how buddhism is take for some people, just as a philosophy to keep mind entertained.

And maybe when you progress in the practice most of these things will interest you very little when you abandon craving for novelty, information, need for control/understanding, certainty ... problem of free will will become just one of the million things you don't fully understand and don't bother you, you prefer to focus in things that can already be understood and help you in progress.

[Lal]

You are told to "practice morality, subdue the mind, make an effort." And at the same time you are told "there is no manager, you are made up of dhammas, dhammas (including efforts) appear by themselves,

Who said that? Not the Buddha.

- This is the havoc caused by translating "anatta" as "no-self" or "not-self" or whatever.

- Of course, there is a person X living and doing things. But there is nothing like an unchanging "soul" associated with that person. That view of an unchanging "soul" is "sakkaya ditthi." But it has a connection to "anatta."
- Anicca, dukkha, and anatta are three characteristics of this world of 31 realms.
- P.S. Because of that nature, nothing in this world is worthwhile to be considered "mine." We create causes and conditions for harmful future consequences (including rebirth) when we engage in immoral deeds with greed and anger/hate due to that ignorance.

[Konstantin Sol]

Thanks everyone.

[Konstantin Sol]

Well, let's take "concentration" and "attention". I see that I can direct attention and focus on any mental object that I want and at will. Change focus object if desired. What are the causes and conditions here?

[Mahabrahma]

No Self? Use Logic in a mindset of pure Anatta.

[Jack19990101]

Well, let's take "concentration" and "attention". I see that I can direct attention and focus on any mental object that I want and at will. Change focus object if desired. What are the causes and conditions here?

When there is element of endeavoring, an endeavor being is clearly discerned. Of such being, there is a self-doer & other-doer.

[jons]

Good afternoon!

Please clarify. I read books about Buddhism, but a lot of incomprehensible.

It is obvious that it is necessary to work on the mind in the process of practice, to control it, all teachers write about this and many sutras (Noble Eightfold Path, awareness, effort, etc.).

Dhammawuddho Thera. Right Thoughts should also be cultivated to avoid unwholesome thoughts that often arise - for example, thoughts of malice, harm, greed. Right Views and Right Thoughts begin to counteract lust, anger, ignorance - the three vicious roots. To keep these three roots in check, you need to constantly observe your own thoughts and know the real motives that underlie our speech and our actions

Dhammawuddho Thera. Knowing any sensible object, feeling automatically arises. Up to this point, we have no control, but starting from here, we can decide for ourselves how we should react. This is where the will comes into play and kamma (intentional action) is created.

Dhammawuddho Thera.
Taming the mind. The untrained mind is wild and restless, like an untamed horse. It must be tamed before it can be useful. The Buddha compared the ordinary mind to six animals44 tied together and pulling each other in different directions. They must be tied to a pole to be harnessed and tamed. In the same way, we attach our mind to one single object of meditation instead of allowing the mind to aspire to the objects of the six senses. Over time, it will establish itself on the object of meditation. This is the only way to tame the mind and gain control over it.

But how does this happen if there is no independent "I", the owner, the manager? Who develops the mind?

Also:

Ajahn Brahm Years ago, I gave the "runaway bus" metaphor. It's like you're riding through life on a bus and having pleasant and unpleasant experiences. You think it's your fault; or you think the driver is at fault. “Why doesn’t the driver go to pleasant places and stay there for a long time? Why does he always go where the territory is unpleasant and stay there for a long time? You want to finally find the one who controls this journey called "my life". Why is it that you endure so much pain and suffering? You want to understand where is the driver, the driver of these five aggregates: body, feeling, perception, mentality and consciousness, the driver of you. After a lot of meditating and listening to the Dhamma, you finally get up to where the driver's seat is and it turns out to be empty!

But it is obvious that there are plans for life, they can be built. How does this happen? How does thinking, planning take place, mental constructs, without the "Self", the manager, the driver?

It is also argued that the body is "not ours", not in our power, not under our control, thoughts are not under control. But it is obvious that we control the body and thoughts. We can act with the body, strengthen it. We can remember what we want, focus on the right thought, of our choice. How does it happen then?

Please tell me.

The confusing explanation of the modern scholar of the Buddha teachings, it is happening because of not understanding the true meaning or the deep meaning of a certain vocabulary of the ancient Language.

The manager, the driver or the main entity of a being is called “Citta” or “Mano”. The word “Citta” in Thai Forest Traditions translate as the heart, or the knower. Then some people translate “Citta” as the mind.

Avoid All Evil, Do Good and Purify the Citta, this is the teaching of all Buddhas (Dhammapada verse183)

Ajaan Paññāvaḍḍho is a native English speaker in the Thai Forest Tradition stated that the word “Citta” should not translate it, and Citta has no equivalent vocabulary in the English language. (Uncommon Wisdom by Ajaan Dick Sīlaratano)
https://forestdhamma.org/books/english- ... wisdom.pdf

The word “Anatta” is usually translated by modern Scholars as “Not self or No self”. Some people even translate it as “no soul” and they did not know the deep meaning of it.

Anatta is one of the characteristics of existence.
The characteristic of existence is not the entity of a being, however, it is a process of a being.
There are 3 characteristics of existences: Anicca , Dukkha, and Anatta.
It is easy to grasp the nature of impermanent “anicca” , and pain” dukkha”. The last one is very hard to grasp, on its nature.

What is anattā?
The word Atta means body, somebody, someone
The word Anatta means Nobody, no one
Anatta is the process of existence, and it means nobody process or no one process.

The teaching of the Buddha

In the Weaver's daughter Story, the Buddha taught her to contemplate on Aging, Sickness, and death. Aging, Sickness and death are the characteristic of nobody process/no one process (Anatta).

After contemplating for a long period of time and you may come up with these questions:

When was the last time someone reminds you to get old? The answer is "nobody/ no one"
When was the last time someone reminds you to get sick? The answer is "nobody/ no one"
When was the last time someone reminds you to breathe? The answer is "nobody/ no one"
When was the last time someone reminds you to get hungry? The answer is "nobody/ no one"
When was the last time someone reminds you to pee? The answer is "nobody/ no one"
When was the last time someone reminds you to poop? The answer is "nobody/ no one"

And you keep asking yourself many more questions until you see the true meaning of Anatta.

Anatta is one of the 3 Characteristics of existence
The three characteristics of existence are: anicca, dukkha, Anattā .
Anicca is impermanent, Dukkha is mental and physical pain, and Anattā is nobody or no one
The three characteristics are not the entity of a being; however, they are the process of a being. So Anattā (nobody/no one) is the natural process or natural function of automatic process of a being.

The natural functions of automatic process of the physical such as sickness, aging, hunger, thirst, breathing, pooping, peeing, yawning, vomiting, diarrhea and etc… are the natural processes of the physical. You are not in control of those processes, and actually, you are the slave and suffer from those processes. When you are getting sick, you cannot command your body not to get sick. It will operate according to its natural process. Aging process is a natural function for all beings in existence, from the lowest realm to the highest realm of existence. Whether those beings are mental only or mental and physical, they are subjected to aging and dying; basically, they are all subjected to anattā.

What is anattā referring to?
It is referring to natural functions of automatic processing of the mental and physical of a being. For example: Breathing..... Did anybody remind you to breathe, or do you remind yourself to breathe? The conditions of physical activities will dictate the breathing process. When you are running or jogging, the breathing goes faster. When you are standing or sitting, the breathing is slower than when you are running or jogging. Did anybody remind you to breathe faster when you are jogging? This natural function of automatic process of the mental and physical is called anattā "Nobody".
The mindfulness practice is very important, keep your focus on the breathing, be aware of the physical process, and be aware of the mental process. For instance, the practice of observing the sensation is very important mental training, so that you can observe the process instead of drowning in the process or suffering from the process.

What are mental functions of automatic processes?
Sexual drive, habits, behaviors, facial expressions, verbal expressions, gestures, and physical activities are mental functions. Mental functions process according to conditions or events happened all the time, and you are not aware of them. Did you notice the process of the conditions or events that come through your eyes or your ears, and all the senses' doors? Or you are merely soaking up and drowning in the experiences without noticing the function of automatic processes.

When you don't have mindfulness and pay attention to mental process and physical process, you are in delusion. You don't see things as they really are" vipassanā" or "insight".

The mindfulness practice is very important, keep your focus on the breathing, be aware of the physical process, and be aware of the mental process. For instance, the practice of observing the sensation is very important mental training, so that you can observe the process instead of drowning in the process or suffering from the process.

You should read the Weaver's daughter Story. In the story, the Buddha taught her to practice contemplation on Aging, Illness, and Death. Then she gained insight into Anicca, dukkha, and anattā.

Anattā = (nobody) natural function of automatic process
The physical (rūpa) is a natural function. The consciousness (viññāṇa) is a natural function. The feeling (vedanā) is a natural function. The memory (saññā) is a natural function. The mental formation (saṅkhāra) is a natural function. If all the aggregates are natural functions of automatic processes of existences, those things would belong to nature. This is the reason why the Buddha said that you are not the owner of the mental and physical (Nāma-rūpa). The whole mental and physical aggregates belong to the nature of existence. You are merely using them temporarily in this existence, then the next and the next in whatever existences.

Peace to all,

Jons

[wenjaforever]

This is like comparing a dog with an ant. An ant is a very rudimentary organism. You can't teach it to sit, roll, give paw, help blind people, guard your house, catch ball, you can't even cuddle with it.

[Konstantin Sol]

Thank you.

[Konstantin Sol]

Thank you