How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

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Gami47
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How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

Post by Coëmgenu »

She was the mother of dragons.
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

According to the Commentary on the Aṅguttaranikāya it was boiling oil, not hot water. Uttarā was unscathed due to the protective power of loving-kindness or compassion.

The eleven benefits of loving-kindness are enumerated in the Mettānisaṃsā Suttaṃ.

The benefits of meditation on compassion (karuṇā) would be similar.
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BKh
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

Post by BKh »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:35 pm due to the protective power of loving-kindness or compassion.
Bhante, would you also say it was the result of a sacca-kiriya?

"If I cherish anger towards her, may this ghee burn me. If not, may it not burn me."
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... /17-03.htm
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

BKh wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:25 amBhante, would you also say it was the result of a sacca-kiriya?

"If I cherish anger towards her, may this ghee burn me. If not, may it not burn me."
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... /17-03.htm
From that text it seems that her vow of truth was the source of her protection. “May I not cherish anger” equates to practising loving-kindness.
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

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Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:31 pm She was the mother of dragons.
Really? Is that taught in Mahayana doctrine?
What dragons? Dragons under the command of Virupakkha ?
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devadhammāti vuccare.

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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Oh, no. It was a very silly joke. "Mother of Dragons" is a title from a formerly popular television show called Game of Thrones. At one point, the character with this title is unburnt by scalding hot water. I don't think the author was referencing this story though.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

Post by Ontheway »

:|
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

Post by Ontheway »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:35 pm According to the Commentary on the Aṅguttaranikāya it was boiling oil, not hot water. Uttarā was unscathed due to the protective power of loving-kindness or compassion.

The eleven benefits of loving-kindness are enumerated in the Mettānisaṃsā Suttaṃ.

The benefits of meditation on compassion (karuṇā) would be similar.


Both Metta and Saccakiriya are indeed powerful. I learned that in Vatta Jataka, the Bodhisatta (despite a quail) made a solemn Saccakiriya and protected himself from fire.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

Post by frank k »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:35 pm According to the Commentary on the Aṅguttaranikāya it was boiling oil, not hot water. Uttarā was unscathed due to the protective power of loving-kindness or compassion.

The eleven benefits of loving-kindness are enumerated in the Mettānisaṃsā Suttaṃ.

The benefits of meditation on compassion (karuṇā) would be similar.
Does Vism. or the commentaries describe how powers of metta or sacchi kiryiya actually work, in protecting the reciter from fatal harm?

Sounds like total BS.
The power of metta could indirectly work as protection if one has powerful deva friends who intervene to stop fire from burning the reciter.
But the actual protection is coming from supernormal powers of the deva, not the reciter.
If Uttara herself had supernormal powers, then that could be a reason, but then, it's the supernormal powers then that is the protection, and not the metta.

Sacci Kiryiya powers also sounds like total BS.
If it actually worked that way, wouldn't you think arahants during the Buddha's time would have invoked that power to do things like, "If the Dhamma is genuine and efficacious, may true Dhamma never die and become infected with corrupted forms of Buddhism with superstitions, wrong views and corruption for the entire world aeon?"
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

Post by Sam Vara »

frank k wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:55 am
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:35 pm According to the Commentary on the Aṅguttaranikāya it was boiling oil, not hot water. Uttarā was unscathed due to the protective power of loving-kindness or compassion.

The eleven benefits of loving-kindness are enumerated in the Mettānisaṃsā Suttaṃ.

The benefits of meditation on compassion (karuṇā) would be similar.
Does Vism. or the commentaries describe how powers of metta or sacchi kiryiya actually work, in protecting the reciter from fatal harm?

Sounds like total BS.
The power of metta could indirectly work as protection if one has powerful deva friends who intervene to stop fire from burning the reciter.
But the actual protection is coming from supernormal powers of the deva, not the reciter.
If Uttara herself had supernormal powers, then that could be a reason, but then, it's the supernormal powers then that is the protection, and not the metta.

Sacci Kiryiya powers also sounds like total BS.
If it actually worked that way, wouldn't you think arahants during the Buddha's time would have invoked that power to do things like, "If the Dhamma is genuine and efficacious, may true Dhamma never die and become infected with corrupted forms of Buddhism with superstitions, wrong views and corruption for the entire world aeon?"
You appear to be saying that sacci kiriya and metta cannot in themselves offer protection, and that a claim they can is "bs"; but that individuals can have supernormal powers, and that there are devas who can befriend us to help us. That's an interesting position. What would you say to those who would claim that supernormal powers of the kind to protect the body from burning, and the existence of devas is also bs?
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

Post by frank k »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:02 pm ...
You appear to be saying that sacci kiriya and metta cannot in themselves offer protection, and that a claim they can is "bs"; but that individuals can have supernormal powers, and that there are devas who can befriend us to help us. That's an interesting position. What would you say to those who would claim that supernormal powers of the kind to protect the body from burning, and the existence of devas is also bs?
Anything we can't do ourselves or haven't personally witnessed, it's fair to question or rightly wonder if it's BS.
4th jhāna meditators who have accurate divine eye, are not that uncommon if you move in the circles of strong meditators.
And if someone can accurately demonstrate the divine eye, seeing past, seeing future, seeing hidden things about someone's life in such minute detail that they couldn't possibly know without psychic powers, it's not hard to believe some of the other 6 abhiñña.
With deva interactions, anyone of any religion who is very virtuous, tends to attract deva friends.
Devas don't always make their presence known, often it's just anonymous help, and virtuous people tend to have what they perceive as uncanny 'luck' avoiding danger and making good decisions that improve their life.

This article collects a number of stories involving devas, including this one that happened to my mom.
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/4kammanto ... l#flink-18
The Deva made a point in that incident to make it clear it was her devotion to her spiritual practice, virtue, that saved her life, not random luck.
She wasn't doing metta when it happened, she was just in a normal worldly state of mind trying to do some daily activity.
I've had a number of incidents in my life where I've been 'lucky', some involved devas talking to me directly in my mind, some involved meditative visions that were just as real looking or even more real looking than our reality.

Here's John Chang, who passed away around 5 years ago I believe, making fire out of his hand.
He's not doing metta while that's happening.

In John Chang book bio, it also describes a period in his life when his teacher told him to go on a solitary meditation retreat in the indonesian jungle, after a few months Chang developed an accurate divine eye and would watch what his family was doing (hundreds of miles away). When his son got ill, with some kind of illness close to death that was difficult to cure, John ended his retreat to cure his son with his qi healing. Point being if his divine eye was just hallucinations, he would find his son not ill at all.

Dipa Ma could do the same.
Someone asked her what her typical mind state she was in, she replied as I recall, "always in sati, samādhi, and metta."
I believe she would be impervious if someone tried to throw boiling oil or fire on her, but I wouldn't attribute it to metta.
It would be because of her mastery of imperturbable 4th jhana and formless attainments, as well as having attained and practiced at times the 5 mundune superpowers of the 6 abhiñña.

I don't doubt that being in metta or any brahma vihara would have some type of superpower effects.
I've been around powerful meditators, and when they're doing metta I think even an ordinary person can feel they have a radius of energy field around them that is palpable, tangibly charged with something that makes sukha and perhaps pīti arise in everyone in that radius.
different than the gooey magnetic energy field of a fourth jhāna meditator not doing brahma vihara.

Perhaps that field of metta would calm or disarm a murderer, and of course it would attract all kind of animals. But metta doesn't stop fire, it would be the power of 4th jhāna samādhi that provides some or total protection from physical harm, or the intervention of friendly devas.
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

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Unconditional love or loving kindness in my experience if strong enough can stop pain altogether. I had a somewhat serious injury and I started doing choiceless awareness meditation in an ambulance and the love from my citta mind heart when into my shoulder and it ceased being painful.
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

Post by Sam Vara »

frank k wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:06 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:02 pm ...
You appear to be saying that sacci kiriya and metta cannot in themselves offer protection, and that a claim they can is "bs"; but that individuals can have supernormal powers, and that there are devas who can befriend us to help us. That's an interesting position. What would you say to those who would claim that supernormal powers of the kind to protect the body from burning, and the existence of devas is also bs?
Anything we can't do ourselves or haven't personally witnessed, it's fair to question or rightly wonder if it's BS.
Your phrase "Sounds like total BS" seems a little stronger than fair questioning or wondering. If people haven't experienced personally what you claim to have experienced, then presumably they would be justified in being equally dismissive. Devas, meditative visions, devas talking to you, knowing powerful meditators, the story about your mother: sounds like total BS. :thinking:
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

Post by confusedlayman »

Metta can make mind sweet and when u focus on metta stongly.. other feels dont come in awareness as u are already conciius of metta feel..


I dont know if metta can offer physical protection after coming in contact with sword or fire or poison ... but it says like that in metta sutta or like
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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