pācittiya 4

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Bundokji
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pācittiya 4

Post by Bundokji »

bhikkhus and friends,

I was going through some of the monastic rules, and pācittiya 4 stopped me:
"yo pana bhikkhu anupasampannaṃ padaso dhammaṃ vāceyya, pācittiyaṃ."

Not to recite together with laymen, texts of dhamma in pāḷi. If a bhikkhu recites pāḷi texts taken from the tipiṭaka or authoritative commentaries on them, even short extracts, together with laymen or laywomen, sāmaṇeras or sīladharas, he commits a pācittiya.

By reciting together with such classes of people, texts in pāḷi or texts from dhamma in other languages, a bhikkhu does not commit any fault. By reciting together text from the dhamma in pāḷi with other bhikkhus or with some bhikkhunīs, a bhikkhu does not commit a fault.
What constitutes reciting together? For example, with modern technology such as online forums, fully ordained monastics can interact with laymen or laywomen, sāmaṇeras or sīladharas. Would quoting pali in writing be a breach of this monastic rule? or specifying recitation is meant to emphasize the oral tradition?

Another part of the question would be local monasteries. If bhikkhus were chanting in pali, lay followers are not allowed to chant along? sometimes i listen to Buddhist chanting on youtube and i recite along the parts i memorize. Should i just listen?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Sam Vara
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Re: pācittiya 4

Post by Sam Vara »

Bundokji wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:26 am bhikkhus and friends,

I was going through some of the monastic rules, and pācittiya 4 stopped me:
"yo pana bhikkhu anupasampannaṃ padaso dhammaṃ vāceyya, pācittiyaṃ."

Not to recite together with laymen, texts of dhamma in pāḷi. If a bhikkhu recites pāḷi texts taken from the tipiṭaka or authoritative commentaries on them, even short extracts, together with laymen or laywomen, sāmaṇeras or sīladharas, he commits a pācittiya.

By reciting together with such classes of people, texts in pāḷi or texts from dhamma in other languages, a bhikkhu does not commit any fault. By reciting together text from the dhamma in pāḷi with other bhikkhus or with some bhikkhunīs, a bhikkhu does not commit a fault.
What constitutes reciting together? For example, with modern technology such as online forums, fully ordained monastics can interact with laymen or laywomen, sāmaṇeras or sīladharas. Would quoting pali in writing be a breach of this monastic rule? or specifying recitation is meant to emphasize the oral tradition?

Another part of the question would be local monasteries. If bhikkhus were chanting in pali, lay followers are not allowed to chant along? sometimes i listen to Buddhist chanting on youtube and i recite along the parts i memorize. Should i just listen?
I find it puzzling too, and had never heard of this before. I learnt Pali chanting by chanting along with the monks and all the other lay people.
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Bhikkhu_Jayasara
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Re: pācittiya 4

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara »

https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-p ... ript=latin


This is indeed an interesting one, but some clarifications :
At one time when the Buddha was staying at Sāvatthī in Anāthapiṇḍika’s Monastery,
Tena samayena buddho bhagavā sāvatthiyaṁ viharati jetavane anāthapiṇḍikassa ārāme.
1.2
the monks from the group of six were instructing lay followers to memorize the Teaching.
Tena kho pana samayena chabbaggiyā bhikkhū upāsake padaso dhammaṁ vācenti.
1.3
Those lay followers became disrespectful, undeferential, and rude toward the monks.
Upāsakā bhikkhūsu agāravā appatissā asabhāgavuttikā viharanti.

1.4
The monks of few desires complained and criticized them,
Ye te bhikkhū appicchā …pe… te ujjhāyanti khiyyanti vipācenti—
1.5
“How can the monks from the group of six instruct lay followers to memorize the Teaching?”
“kathañhi nāma chabbaggiyā bhikkhū upāsake padaso dhammaṁ vācessanti.
1.6
Upāsakā bhikkhūsu agāravā appatissā asabhāgavuttikā viharantī”ti.

1.7
After rebuking those monks in many ways, they told the Buddha. Soon afterwards he had the Sangha gathered and questioned the monks:
Atha kho te bhikkhū chabbaggiye bhikkhū anekapariyāyena vigarahitvā bhagavato etamatthaṁ ārocesuṁ …pe…
1.8
“Is it true, monks, that you do this?”
“saccaṁ kira tumhe, bhikkhave, upāsake padaso dhammaṁ vācetha;
1.9
upāsakā bhikkhūsu agāravā appatissā asabhāgavuttikā viharantī”ti?

1.10
“It’s true, Sir.”
“Saccaṁ, bhagavā”ti.

1.11
The Buddha rebuked them …
Vigarahi buddho bhagavā …pe…
1.12
“Foolish men, how can you do this?”
kathañhi nāma tumhe, moghapurisā, upāsake padaso dhammaṁ vācessatha.
1.13
Upāsakā bhikkhūsu agāravā appatissā asabhāgavuttikā viharanti.
1.14
This will affect people’s confidence …” …

Final ruling :
‘If a monk instructs a person who is not fully ordained to memorize the Teaching, he commits an offense entailing confession.’”
and also non offense Claus :
Non-offenses
2.3.1
There is no offense:
Anāpatti—
2.3.2
if they recite together;
ekato uddisāpento,
2.3.3
if they practice together;
ekato sajjhāyaṁ karonto,
2.3.4
if he prompts one who is speaking a mostly familiar text;
yebhuyyena paguṇaṁ ganthaṁ bhaṇantaṁ opāteti,
2.3.5
if he prompts one who is reciting;
osārentaṁ opāteti,
2.3.6
if he is insane;
ummattakassa,
2.3.7
if he is the first offender.
ādikammikassāti.


So you can see "reciting together" is not an offense, so being at a monastery reciting suttas with monks is not the issue here.



I believe the issue here is related to oral tradition and keeping the teachings from being diluted too much. If the monks at the time encouraged everyone and their mother to start memorizing suttas, there can be lots of divergence and confusion, a sort of "leave it to the professionals"(who were split into teams of large groups who recited the suttas together to make sure everyone had it right, a sort of self correcting mechanism) kind of mentality. If you notice when a monastic is there with the lay person, its ok.

This could also be seen as something that interrupts society, if laity spent their time memorizing instead of working the farm with their family etc etc, becoming a monastic allowed for the vessel of the teachings to be kept more organized and pure.

You also have to keep in mind that at the time of the Buddha, only the Brahmins memorized and recited the vedas, it was a high caste very important thing, if the Buddhists encouraged laity to start memorizing and reciting, it could of caused social strife, especially if low caste people are doing it.
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Sam Vara
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Re: pācittiya 4

Post by Sam Vara »

Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:52 pm ...
Many thanks, Bhante. That seems to clear it all up!

Just one little detail which remains ambiguous. When the Buddha rebukes the monks:
After rebuking those monks in many ways, they told the Buddha. Soon afterwards he had the Sangha gathered and questioned the monks:
Atha kho te bhikkhū chabbaggiye bhikkhū anekapariyāyena vigarahitvā bhagavato etamatthaṁ ārocesuṁ …pe…
1.8
“Is it true, monks, that you do this?”
“saccaṁ kira tumhe, bhikkhave, upāsake padaso dhammaṁ vācetha;
1.9
upāsakā bhikkhūsu agāravā appatissā asabhāgavuttikā viharantī”ti?

1.10
“It’s true, Sir.”
“Saccaṁ, bhagavā”ti.

1.11
The Buddha rebuked them …
Vigarahi buddho bhagavā …pe…
1.12
“Foolish men, how can you do this?”
kathañhi nāma tumhe, moghapurisā, upāsake padaso dhammaṁ vācessatha.
1.13
Upāsakā bhikkhūsu agāravā appatissā asabhāgavuttikā viharanti.
1.14
This will affect people’s confidence …”
Is he, when asking "how can you do this?" referring to the monks rebuking their fellow monks, or the initial practice of instructing the lay people to memorise the Dhamma? :anjali:
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Bhikkhu_Jayasara
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Re: pācittiya 4

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara »

I've not seen an instance where the Buddha is rebuking the monastics who brought the issue to the Buddha. They are usually described as good monastics that are doing so. That would be quite counterintuitive to the goal to rebuke good monks who bring a legitimate issue that can harm the Buddhasasana, discouraging future events.
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Re: pācittiya 4

Post by Sam Vara »

:anjali: Thanks!
Bundokji
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Re: pācittiya 4

Post by Bundokji »

Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:52 pm You also have to keep in mind that at the time of the Buddha, only the Brahmins memorized and recited the vedas, it was a high caste very important thing, if the Buddhists encouraged laity to start memorizing and reciting, it could of caused social strife, especially if low caste people are doing it.
Thank you Venerable Sir :anjali:

In my limited understanding, Sanskrit and Latin were also not learned or used by ordinary people, same as Hebrew in the Jewish tradition until recently. I have heard that during the diaspora, the majority of the Jewish people spoke Yiddish, and it was the Rabbis who preserved Hebrew until it became the official language in modern Israel.

Reading this rule also triggered thoughts about the underlying meaning of "recitation". In the Muslim tradition, prophet Mohammed received the first instructions in verses commanding him to "recite" which in modern language became commonly understood as "reading". The instructions were conveyed through telepathy (or the messenger of God). If the meaning of kaya among the noble ones, such as the group of six, differs from ordinary people, then it would be reasonable to expect that most ordinary people would not show enough respect to the teachings.

Apologies if the above is not directly relevant, but i still rely on comparative religions in my attempts of understanding. :anjali:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: pācittiya 4

Post by Johann »

Bundokji wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:26 am bhikkhus and friends,

I was going through some of the monastic rules, and pācittiya 4 stopped me:
"yo pana bhikkhu anupasampannaṃ padaso dhammaṃ vāceyya, pācittiyaṃ."

Not to recite together with laymen, texts of dhamma in pāḷi. If a bhikkhu recites pāḷi texts taken from the tipiṭaka or authoritative commentaries on them, even short extracts, together with laymen or laywomen, sāmaṇeras or sīladharas, he commits a pācittiya.

By reciting together with such classes of people, texts in pāḷi or texts from dhamma in other languages, a bhikkhu does not commit any fault. By reciting together text from the dhamma in pāḷi with other bhikkhus or with some bhikkhunīs, a bhikkhu does not commit a fault.
What constitutes reciting together? For example, with modern technology such as online forums, fully ordained monastics can interact with laymen or laywomen, sāmaṇeras or sīladharas. Would quoting pali in writing be a breach of this monastic rule? or specifying recitation is meant to emphasize the oral tradition?

Another part of the question would be local monasteries. If bhikkhus were chanting in pali, lay followers are not allowed to chant along? sometimes i listen to Buddhist chanting on youtube and i recite along the parts i memorize. Should i just listen?
Here yours does, good householder, on the wrong base.
Formaly, monks, in Benares, the wife if a certain low class man came to bd pregnant. Then, monks, this low class woman spoke thuse to this low cjlass man: 'Sir, I am pregnant; I want to eat a mango.'
'There are no mangoes, it's not the mango season', he said.
Now at that time the king had a mango tree with a perpetual crop of fruit. Then, monks, that low class man approached that mango tree; having approached, having climed up that mango tree, he renained hidden.
Then, monks, the king together with the brahmin priest, approached that mango tree; having approached, having sat down on a higher seat, he learnt a mantra. Then, monks, it occurred to the low class man:

'How unrighteous is this king, inasmuch as he learns Dhamma, having sat down on a high seat. This Brahmin also is unrightous, inasmuch as he, having sat down a low seat, teaches Dhamma to someone sitting on a higher seat. I too am unrighteous, I who for the sake of a woman (beloved poor), steal the Kings mangoes (Dhamma). But all this is quite gone,' and he fell down just there.

Neither knows the goal,
neither sees dhamma,
Neither he who teaches the Dhamma,
nor he who learns accordind to what is not the rule."

"My food is pure conjey
of rice flavoured with meat,
I do not therefore fare on Dhamma,
dhamma praised by the Noble.

Brahmin, shame on that gain of wealth,
(that) gain of fame;
That conduct (leads to falling away.)

Although today many have access to the good teachings (words, actually much, much lesser have it, gain it, in ways, where it could be taken right, received, and works for their good not for their harm. Nearly non has contact to non-degenerated societies, and good families, even Noble Ones.

So one should know those fools sharing Dhamma in wrong way, as the largest enemies of the good for many and the good for themself.

If one happens to trace such, while thinking like a thief, may he be blessed by fall down from there quickly and avoid ways of lost folks right after then. Only less will be blessed and smart enough to get not firm caught in improper conceit, miccha-mana, whichcloses down all proper efforts to gain land on proper conceit toward the path.

Less are those, when facing unrighteous from the tree, who "fall" and follow good ways. More, on getting aware, yet knowing right and wrong, will even take it as occasion to pick up more mangos. And the other great amount, who might fall, will be picked up by such 'Kings' and 'Holly man' receive a higher place as them and invited to learn, gain, in similar way.

Indeed less are blessed, either already secure or going for seeking real refuge.
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