Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

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BrokenBones
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Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by BrokenBones »

Magic?

Vibrations?

Elitism?

Reluctance to use several words to convey the full meaning of one Pali word?

Because of its antiquity and that it never was a spoken language? Perhaps it gives commentators the ability to redefine certain words (words, whose Sanskrit counterpart meanings sometimes seem more appropriate & fitting).
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Sam Vara
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by Sam Vara »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:07 am Magic?

Vibrations?

Elitism?

Reluctance to use several words to convey the full meaning of one Pali word?

Because of its antiquity and that it never was a spoken language? Perhaps it gives commentators the ability to redefine certain words (words, whose Sanskrit counterpart meanings sometimes seem more appropriate & fitting).
I'm not sure why you think that Pali is deemed a special language. Could you give some examples of people saying that it is? I believe modern philologists consider it to be a Middle Indo-Aryan language (MIA), part of a loose grouping called Prakrit in India. They don't, as far as I know, think there is anything particularly special about the language in terms of its structure or origins. People tend to get more excited about Sanskrit, of which Sir William Jones, the 18th Century British philologist, said:
The Sanscrit language, whatever be its antiquity, is of a wonderful structure; more perfect than the Greek, more copious than the Latin, and more exquisitely refined than either
It is certainly more regular and less corrupted than Pali.

Outside of academia, Buddhists wanting to get more of a sense of what the Buddha was talking about, or wanting to clear up confusions, would naturally be drawn to looking at Pali. It is the means by which the earliest existing account of the Buddha's thought is presented to us. It's only "special" in the sense of being the focus of intense interest.

Again, I don't know where the accusation that there is a reluctance to use several words to convey the full meaning of one Pali word comes from. Pali dictionaries usually give a range of meanings and different words for Pali terms where the meaning is ambiguous. In presenting translated suttas, the English term considered the most fitting is used, because stylistically it would be awkward to present a range each time. Translation is as much an art as it is a science.
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by SarathW »

:guns:
BrokenBones wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:07 am Magic?

Vibrations?

Elitism?

Reluctance to use several words to convey the full meaning of one Pali word?

Because of its antiquity and that it never was a spoken language? Perhaps it gives commentators the ability to redefine certain words (words, whose Sanskrit counterpart meanings sometimes seem more appropriate & fitting).
Some Buddhist monks still can communicate in Pali.
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dadati
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by dadati »

There are a lot of things which are special about the language.

First of all we call the "language" as pāḷi accidentally. Páḷi means text, the text of the Tripitaka.

The actual language itself is called Magadhi. This is the language which was spoken in Magadha, which was spoken in the area where the Buddha lived and taught the Dhamma.

Other special things about the language:
- this is the very first language of the world - this was the language which was spoken by the human beings at the begging of the world cycle
- this is the language which is spoken by Sammā Sambuddhas
- this is the spoken language in the Brahma world


p.s. To those who provide protection for and cover the ways of those who do not deserve it:
"‘Householders, if the  ascetics of other beliefs ask you: "Householders, what kind of recluses and brahmins should not be revered, esteemed and worshipped?" You should reply them thus. Those recluses and brahmins, without dispelled greed, aversion and delusion, for forms cognizable by eye-consciousness, internally not appeased, abide with good and bad conduct by body, speech and mind. Such recluses and brahmins should not be revered, esteemed and worshipped."
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by BrokenBones »

:oops:
Last edited by BrokenBones on Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
BrokenBones
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by BrokenBones »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:06 am
dadati wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:35 am There are a lot of things which are special about the language.

First of all we call the "language" as pāḷi accidentally. Páḷi means text, the text of the Tripitaka.

The actual language itself is called Magadhi. This is the language which was spoken in Magadha, which was spoken in the area where the Buddha lived and taught the Dhamma.

Other special things about the language:
- this is the very first language of the world - this was the language which was spoken by the human beings at the begging of the world cycle
- this is the language which is spoken by Sammā Sambuddhas
- this is the spoken language in the Brahma world


p.s. To those who provide protection for and cover the ways of...
Hi Sam Vara... see above... I rest my case.

I also find it strange that Theravada monks recite the suttas/vinaya in Pali rather than their native language... this itself is making Pali a 'special' language.

Why recite in Pali? It's a language that has never been spoken and from what I gather offers little intrinsic value or precision.

So again... is it the vibrations? Mantra like magic? Or is it tradition founded on an elitism similar to the Brahmins?
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Sam Vara
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by Sam Vara »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:08 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:06 am
dadati wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:35 am There are a lot of things which are special about the language.

First of all we call the "language" as pāḷi accidentally. Páḷi means text, the text of the Tripitaka.

The actual language itself is called Magadhi. This is the language which was spoken in Magadha, which was spoken in the area where the Buddha lived and taught the Dhamma.

Other special things about the language:
- this is the very first language of the world - this was the language which was spoken by the human beings at the begging of the world cycle
- this is the language which is spoken by Sammā Sambuddhas
- this is the spoken language in the Brahma world


p.s. To those who provide protection for and cover the ways of...
Hi Sam Vara... see above... I rest my case.

I also find it strange that Theravada monks recite the suttas/vinaya in Pali rather than their native language... this itself is making Pali a 'special' language.

Why recite in Pali? It's a language that has never been spoken and from what I gather offers little intrinsic value or precision.

So again... is it the vibrations? Mantra like magic? Or is it tradition founded on an elitism similar to the Brahmins?
Well, dadati seems to have answered it for you. It's worth noting, of course, that many modern scholars consider his points to be wrong or unverifiable. Alexander Wynne and Richard Gombrich, for example, favour the idea that Pali was closer to Kosali than Maghadi, and Gombrich points out that on the basis of his widespread travelling, the Buddha himself spoke in a range of different dialects. Gombrich in Buddhism and Pali:
My theory...is that Pali reflects the idiosyncratic language used by the Buddha as he toured northeast India and communicated with a population ranging from brahmins to untouchables. When after some years his followers wrote down what he said and made some attempt to standardise it by giving it a set grammar and an orthography, they were to some extent guided by the only grammar and orthography which existed in their culture, those of Sanskrit, but they were also concerned to retain as best they could the precise characteristics of their teacher's language as preserved by their oral tradition.


Bhikkhu Bodhi says:
"...various features of Pali indicate that it cannot be identified with Magadhi as we know it from the earliest sources available to us...Many scholars regard Pali as a hybrid showing features of several Prakrit dialects used around the third century BCE, subjected to a partial process of Sanskritization....While the language called 'Pali' is not identical with any that the Buddha himself would have spoken, it belongs to the same broad linguistic family as those he might have used..."
(Reading the Buddha's Discourses in Pali)

So it doesn't seem to be exactly the same as Magadhi; wasn't spoken as such by the Buddha; was not the first language (there are many examples of older languages). But if people believe these things, like Pali is spoken in the Brahma World, then their belief is unlikely to be shaken by modern philology.

Theravadan monks do recite the texts in their native language, as well as in Pali. The Thai Forest Tradition recites in English as well as Pali, and I have heard suttas recited in Sinhalese, although I don't know how widespread the practice is.

I'm not sure what you mean by "intrinsic value or precision". If we want to know what the Buddha said, how might we add intrinsic value or precision by means of a translation? We might latch on to the translation because it gives us a feeling of certainty, but, without an attempt to understand the Pali, how would we ever know that our certainty was justified?

Bhikkhu Bodhi gives 3 reasons as to why an understanding of Pali is worthwhile. It is, along with the Agama counterparts, the earliest record of what the Buddha taught, so takes us closest to his meaning. Links between words and concepts are clear in Pali in ways that are obscured in translation. And any translation necessarily involves a degree of extraneous interpretation. So Pali is "special" to that extent.

With regard to "vibrations", I know several Westerners - all of them highly educated, and several of the Cambridge academics - who believe something like that. They really got into chanting in Pali, and consider it hugely beneficial in itself. Whether they would have the same effect from chanting in a different language - or indeed using a different intonation, as they favour a "Thai" style - is a matter of mere conjecture.
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by Joe.c »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:07 am Elitism?
This :thumbsup:

Then they will say. Hey, go study Pali first before I can communicate with you or explain to you.

Even though his first language is English. LOL.

But when you dig deep, many wrong views. :-)
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by Joe.c »

dadati wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:35 am Other special things about the language:
- this is the very first language of the world - this was the language which was spoken by the human beings at the begging of the world cycle
Fake news. Pali is language used in India at that time. That's it.
- this is the language which is spoken by Sammā Sambuddhas
Did you recall that all Samma Sambuddhas used Pali? Even the current Buddha didn't said it.
- this is the spoken language in the Brahma world
Fake news. Brahma world didn't converse by speaking like human. Remember, at 1st jhana speech has stopped.

But doesn't mean they can't. Only dealing with lower realm, they speak.
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by dadati »

Joe.c wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:11 am
dadati wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:35 am Other special things about the language:
- this is the very first language of the world - this was the language which was spoken by the human beings at the begging of the world cycle
Fake news. Pali is language used in India at that time. That's it.
- this is the language which is spoken by Sammā Sambuddhas
Did you recall that all Samma Sambuddhas used Pali? Even the current Buddha didn't said it.
- this is the spoken language in the Brahma world
Fake news. Brahma world didn't converse by speaking like human. Remember, at 1st jhana speech has stopped.

But doesn't mean they can't. Only dealing with lower realm, they speak.
Sure, Theras tell and teach "Fake News". I am not so sure as you. I would consider my words more carefully.
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by Joe.c »

dadati wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:08 pm Sure, Theras tell and teach "Fake News". I am not so sure as you. I would consider my words more carefully.
Who are these theras again?

Final words from Buddha to Ananda. Take Sutta and Vinaya as your guide. No others. Buddha didn’t say take theras as your guidance. But i would take all theras in Sutta that Buddha announce as ariyas as a guide though. Because i know they follow the exact path, N8FP.

But not other theras.

Btw, Anyone who said something needs to be investigated with direct knowledge. If you can’t, put it aside. proceed with the path by developing your faculties furthers.

Btw, Beings born in Brahma world can converse in any languages even in english. Otherwise they can’t be a brahma being. A brahma control many worlds.

Actually they don’t need to speak, they can just read your mind faster. 😀
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dadati
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by dadati »

Joe.c wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:09 pm
dadati wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:08 pm Sure, Theras tell and teach "Fake News". I am not so sure as you. I would consider my words more carefully.
Who are these theras again?

Final words from Buddha to Ananda. Take Sutta and Vinaya as your guide. No others. Buddha didn’t say take theras as your guidance. But i would take all theras in Sutta that Buddha announce as ariyas as a guide though. Because i know they follow the exact path, N8FP.

But not other theras.

Btw, Anyone who said something needs to be investigated with direct knowledge. If you can’t, put it aside. proceed with the path by developing your faculties furthers.

Yes you need to investigate if you are unsure. But if you ask your best friend who you know well and you know you can fully trust him then you do not need to investigate and you will not investigate, probably. You will simply follow his instructions (e.g. getting from A to B).

On the other hand if you are capable of going to the Brahma world then yes, please investigate to get direct knowledge about the language spoken in the Brahma world. Or maybe you just remember the spoken language and you can investigate the language you spoke there. But till you cannot do these things your sources are trustable persons who either had direct knowledge or learned it from someone else who they trusted.

On the other hand we are not talking about the Dhamma here but we are talking about a language.
Joe.c wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:09 pm Take Sutta and Vinaya as your guide
The Tripitaka is not a grammar book, neither the Sutta Pitaka and neither the Vinaya. So it is pretty hard to get information about the language itself if you try to get this information by consulting the Tripitaka.
Joe.c wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:09 pm Who are these theras again?
Informations regarding the language e.g. can be found in the sub commentary of the vinaya, written by Tipiṭakālaṅkāra. E.g. you can find these infos in: vinayālaṇkāra-ṭikā/34.46.
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by robertk »

Joe.c wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:09 pm
dadati wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:08 pm Sure, Theras tell and teach "Fake News". I am not so sure as you. I would consider my words more carefully.
Who are these theras again?

Final words from Buddha to Ananda. Take Sutta and Vinaya as your guide. No others. Buddha didn’t say take theras as your guidance. But i would take all theras in Sutta that Buddha announce as ariyas as a guide though. Because i know they follow the exact path, N8FP.

But not other theras.

Do you mean the Mahaparinibbana sutta?


Tasmātihānanda, attadīpā viharatha attasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā, dhammadīpā dhammasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā.

So Ānanda, be your own island, your own refuge, with no other refuge. Let the teaching be your island and your refuge, with no other refuge.
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by mikenz66 »

robertk wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:23 pm Do you mean the Mahaparinibbana sutta?

Tasmātihānanda, attadīpā viharatha attasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā, dhammadīpā dhammasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā.

So Ānanda, be your own island, your own refuge, with no other refuge. Let the teaching be your island and your refuge, with no other refuge.
This is sometimes quoted with the idea that the Buddha is saying (somewhat anachronistically, since it was, at the time, a purely oral transmission): "Just read the suttas". So I think it's worth examining the rest of the passage:
So Ānanda, be your own island, your own refuge, with no other refuge. Let the teaching be your island and your refuge, with no other refuge.
Tasmātihānanda, attadīpā viharatha attasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā, dhammadīpā dhammasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā.

And how does a mendicant do this?
It’s when a mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of the body—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world.
They meditate observing an aspect of feelings …
mind …
principles—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world.

That’s how a mendicant is their own island, their own refuge, with no other refuge. That’s how the teaching is their island and their refuge, with no other refuge.

Whether now or after I have passed, any who shall live as their own island, their own refuge, with no other refuge; with the teaching as their island and their refuge, with no other refuge—those mendicants of mine who want to train shall be among the best of the best.”

https://suttacentral.net/dn16/en/sujato ... ript=latin
Here dhamma as an an island and a refuge might be understood as the first entry in the New Concise Pali English Dictionary here: https://suttacentral.net/define/dhamma
1. How the world of experience works, the processes by which it works and is explained (especially as formulated in cattāri ariyasaccānī and paṭiccasamuppāda), and the possibility and way of transcending it, as understood by the Buddha and taught by him (so that knowledge and understanding of it might bring awakening, arhantship, to others).
Rather than the rather dry:
5. ... The teaching as collected in the canon; the texts
I don't think one goes for refuge in the canon. One goes for refuge in the dhamma...

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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by Joe.c »

robertk wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:23 pm Do you mean the Mahaparinibbana sutta?


Tasmātihānanda, attadīpā viharatha attasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā, dhammadīpā dhammasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā.

So Ānanda, be your own island, your own refuge, with no other refuge. Let the teaching be your island and your refuge, with no other refuge.
I meant this one.
Yo vo, ānanda, mayā dhammo ca vinayo ca desito paññatto, so vo mamaccayena satthā.
Ananda, The teaching and training that I have taught and pointed out for you shall be your Teacher after my passing.
Looks like I misquoted the word dhamma as sutta. Apologize for that!
Let the teaching be your island and your refuge, with no other refuge.
Sentence that you quoted only when one has understood the dhamma. Without having understood it, it will be very difficult to know.

If you reach certain level, one can investigate to know such as Having unbroken precepts, then one can know who has broken precepts. etc.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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