jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Joe.c wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:58 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:02 pm
Good luck. Can’t help with stubbornness. 😅

Without understanding 1st jhana properly, there won’t be any awakening unfortunately.
The first sensible thing you’ve said.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Frank, the word you've translated as "Lives" is also commonly translated as "Abides". I guess you feel Lives is a better translation; could you say a few words about why you prefer that word?
It seems that's the key word in the text and your argument.

Cheers.
Joe.c
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Re: jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

Post by Joe.c »

frank k wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:11 pm Not all householders, but anyone who was serious about their practice, for example 500 lay follower friends of anathapindika, were told to practice to at least first and second jhana.


https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... #smd1-easy
AN 5.176 and AN 5.179 especially.

DN 18 says over 2 million lay followers attained stream entry. They couldn't have done that without at least first jhāna.
Agreed. Stream entry needs at least 1st jhana. Without it, you will find no stream enterer. The most important thing is your mind needs to be in Jhana when you hear true dhamma.

The AN 5.179 is a standard advice for householder by Buddha. Practice precepts and dwell in jhana with 4 recollections from time to time.

Well, training jhana and maintaining jhana are 2 very different things though.

Anāthapiṇḍika can't maintain the jhana till end of life, hence he took another birth in Kama Loka, Tusita Heaven (See MN 143).

But some householders can maintain jhana till end of life such as Hatthaka of Alavi (AN 3.127), Citta (SN 41).
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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robertk
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Re: jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

Post by robertk »

your mind needs to be in Jhana when you hear true dhamma
.
As there is no hearing possible while in jhana this would be problematic.
Joe.c
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Re: jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

Post by Joe.c »

robertk wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:41 pm
your mind needs to be in Jhana when you hear true dhamma
.
As there is no hearing possible while in jhana this would be problematic.
That is your understanding, and that is not my understanding or Frank understanding from above.

See MN 56, how Upali entered the stream.

Actually smart person doesn't need even to meditate, their mind is already focus enough. :)
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
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Cause_and_Effect
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Re: jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:35 pm
Joe.c wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:23 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:58 pm No one is in Jhāna constantly.
Tell that to Beings in Brahma World. They will laugh at you. :)
Brahma and others spoke with the Buddha, something that should be impossible if they were in their attainments 24/7. If Braham laughs, then he isn't in Jhāna

"For one who has attained the first jhana, speech has ceased." - SN 36.11
Stop this relentless cogitio-logical diarrhoea that seems to spew out and, without basis nor experience attempts to impose blind assumptions about the dhamma, jhana, even now higher beings based on your very select readings and interpretations of that.

There can be different types of communication, perhaps telepathic between devas and when they talk to the Buddha for example.

"The Dhamma is not found in books"
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

Post by frank k »

https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/sound/index.html
Plenty of suttas showing hearing in jhāna.
All you can cite as proof is one non-canonical scripture which is not spoken by the Buddha,
and ignore all the EBT suttas showing perception of rūpa and connection to 5 senses.
Cognitive dissonance at its extreme.
robertk wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:41 pm
your mind needs to be in Jhana when you hear true dhamma
.
As there is no hearing possible while in jhana this would be problematic.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
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Re: jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

Post by frank k »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:23 pm Frank, the word you've translated as "Lives" is also commonly translated as "Abides". I guess you feel Lives is a better translation; could you say a few words about why you prefer that word?
It seems that's the key word in the text and your argument.

Cheers.
If someone 'abides' in metta and/or 'lives' in metta all the time, can you see how both translations can work?
And can you see that there's s spectrum of metta, how the force of metta can fluctuate, but some people can always seem to retain a fraction of metta all the time?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:54 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:35 pm
Joe.c wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:23 pm

Tell that to Beings in Brahma World. They will laugh at you. :)
Brahma and others spoke with the Buddha, something that should be impossible if they were in their attainments 24/7. If Braham laughs, then he isn't in Jhāna

"For one who has attained the first jhana, speech has ceased." - SN 36.11
Stop this relentless cogitio-logical diarrhoea that seems to spew out and, without basis nor experience attempts to impose blind assumptions about the dhamma, jhana, even now higher beings based on your very select readings and interpretations of that.

There can be different types of communication, perhaps telepathic between devas and when they talk to the Buddha for example.

"The Dhamma is not found in books"
The sutta quite clearly states that those who are in the 1st Jhāna cannot speak. If you want to appeal to telepathy, well this just means those devas who are in the 2nd Jhāna cannot communicate either since they have no basis for which to even think let alone talk. The problem also remains regarding pain. If the Buddha was in Jhāna 24/7 he would never experience pain, ever, but he did. As for the Dhamma not being found in books, that is very true. It is found in virtue, in sense-restraint and so on. Still, we are supposed to gain a conceptual knowledge of the Dhamma first. For us today that means using the suttas as our guide, and as our guide they are telling us that you are wrong in your view on this matter.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

Post by confusedlayman »

Frank dont have any exp of jhana as mentioned in sutta/vism.. maybe he should go and practice rather than trolling himself with jhana definitions that he is not giving any evidence from sutta
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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