jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

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frank k
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jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

Post by frank k »

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Re: jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

Post by Joe.c »

Hey Frank,

Where have you been? I have said jhana needs to be maintained 24/7. 😀

If one has done anapanasati properly, it will satisfy satipatthana, then 7 awakening factors.

One will be in jhana all the time, totally off from 5 senses world (aka mara world). 😀😀

N8FP is a path that need 24/7 commitment as a lifestyle.
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Re: jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Do you mean to say, you are continuously in a state of the third jhana?
So while for example washing dishes your background awareness is fully immersed in the breath energy body, while your attention is focussed on the task of scrubbing dishes and verbal thought is totally absent?

For conversation do you 'slip down' to the first jhana where verbal thought may be needed?

How does your sitting jhana meditation practice differ from your day to to day continuous jhana, if there is a difference in your view?
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

Post by frank k »

Joe.c wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:18 pm Hey Frank,

Where have you been? I have said jhana needs to be maintained 24/7. 😀

If one has done anapanasati properly, it will satisfy satipatthana, then 7 awakening factors.

One will be in jhana all the time, totally off from 5 senses world (aka mara world). 😀😀

N8FP is a path that need 24/7 commitment as a lifestyle.
We have to be careful about how we explain that though.
We should be attempting to maintain 4 states of jhāna all the time, but the quality of it fluctuates. Even maintaining sati continuously is challenging let alone have 4 jhānas quality of sati on top of that.
But a bigger problem IMO, is that people don't even realize how easy a low quality jhāna is to do, but that it requires strong commitment and unrelenting effort to refine it.
Most people just think jhāna is something only 1 in a million people can do.
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Re: jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

Post by frank k »

See
https://lucid24.org/tped/j/jhana-force/index.html
and
https://lucid24.org/tped/j/jasi/index.html


In short, jhana is not an exact science, and there is a continuum of how strong jhanic force and quality of samadhi.
vitakka and vicara is a problem for people on their way up while learning jhana, but from the perspective of someone who can do the higher jhanas, 4th jhāna done with vitakka, or even formless samādhi done with vitakka, has a much different feel.
imperturbable version of 4th jhāna for example, a monk is giving a dhamma talk, he's talking, he's hearing, he's doing vitakka, sometimes he's reading minds and seeing things with his divine eye. Would you say he's not in any of the four jhānas because he's talking?
In practice, his samādhi is 4th jhāna quality most of that time, but talking and thinking disperses some of the jhanic force so it's not going to be as strong as sitting quietly in comparison.

Just as someone whispering vs. someone yelling as loud as they can, there's a continuum of how much jhanic force is dissipated, in the same way V&V has a continuum you can feel in how much a second jhāna's full jhanic force propoertionally is dispersed when one mentally whispers versus a beginners "loud" vitakka.



Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:35 am
Do you mean to say, you are continuously in a state of the third jhana?
So while for example washing dishes your background awareness is fully immersed in the breath energy body, while your attention is focussed on the task of scrubbing dishes and verbal thought is totally absent?

For conversation do you 'slip down' to the first jhana where verbal thought may be needed?

How does your sitting jhana meditation practice differ from your day to to day continuous jhana, if there is a difference in your view?
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www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

frank k wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:59 am See
https://lucid24.org/tped/j/jhana-force/index.html
and
https://lucid24.org/tped/j/jasi/index.html


In short, jhana is not an exact science, and there is a continuum of how strong jhanic force and quality of samadhi.
vitakka and vicara is a problem for people on their way up while learning jhana, but from the perspective of someone who can do the higher jhanas, 4th jhāna done with vitakka, or even formless samādhi done with vitakka, has a much different feel.
imperturbable version of 4th jhāna for example, a monk is giving a dhamma talk, he's talking, he's hearing, he's doing vitakka, sometimes he's reading minds and seeing things with his divine eye. Would you say he's not in any of the four jhānas because he's talking?
In practice, his samādhi is 4th jhāna quality most of that time, but talking and thinking disperses some of the jhanic force so it's not going to be as strong as sitting quietly in comparison.

Just as someone whispering vs. someone yelling as loud as they can, there's a continuum of how much jhanic force is dissipated, in the same way V&V has a continuum you can feel in how much a second jhāna's full jhanic force propoertionally is dispersed when one mentally whispers versus a beginners "loud" vitakka.

:namaste:
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:59 am In short, ..
and what is it good for?
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Re: jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

Post by Ceisiwr »

No one is in Jhāna constantly.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

Post by Joe.c »

frank k wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:50 am We have to be careful about how we explain that though.
If one follows N8FP step by step, there is nothing to worry about. The path is completely clear and bright. But if one doesn't follow the correct path, then one needs to be careful. :)
We should be attempting to maintain 4 states of jhāna all the time, but the quality of it fluctuates. Even maintaining sati continuously is challenging let alone have 4 jhānas quality of sati on top of that.
Jhana is easy once you have understood it. But when one hasn't seen/known it, it is difficult. This is why you need someone who has direct experience to tell you.
But a bigger problem IMO, is that people don't even realize how easy a low quality jhāna is to do, but that it requires strong commitment and unrelenting effort to refine it.
Most people just think jhāna is something only 1 in a million people can do.
So true. It needs commitment. This is why Buddha didn't teach householder Jhana, but only ask them to hear true dhamma to get right view.

....

O yeah ... Just make sure you have switched your "Sanna" from KamaSanna to RupaSanna or ArupaSanna. Don't forget to check all the conditions (i.e. No desire with lower realms and sensual realms). Then, you are good to go. :)

Good Luck.
Last edited by Joe.c on Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

Post by Joe.c »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:58 pm No one is in Jhāna constantly.
Tell that to Beings in Brahma World. They will laugh at you. :)
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
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Re: jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Joe.c wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:23 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:58 pm No one is in Jhāna constantly.
Tell that to Beings in Brahma World. They will laugh at you. :)
Brahma and others spoke with the Buddha, something that should be impossible if they were in their attainments 24/7. If Braham laughs, then he isn't in Jhāna

"For one who has attained the first jhana, speech has ceased." - SN 36.11
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

Post by Joe.c »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:35 pm Brahma and others spoke with the Buddha, something that should be impossible if they were in their attainments 24/7. If Braham laughs, then he isn't in Jhāna

"For one who has attained the first jhana, speech has ceased." - SN 36.11
You are still using your logic. :)

Cease doesn't mean one suddenly become a Mute. Lol.

Try to understand the differences of
1. Preferred not to speak
2. Can't speak due to barrier: language/ not understand
3. a Mute.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
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Re: jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Joe.c wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:39 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:35 pm Brahma and others spoke with the Buddha, something that should be impossible if they were in their attainments 24/7. If Braham laughs, then he isn't in Jhāna

"For one who has attained the first jhana, speech has ceased." - SN 36.11
You are still using your logic. :)

Cease doesn't mean one suddenly become a Mute. Lol.

Try to understand the differences of
1. Preferred not to speak
2. Can't speak due to barrier: language/ not understand
3. a Mute.
Cease means to stop. When in Jhāna speech stops. When in the 2nd Jhāna vitakka-vicāra have stopped. Devas then in this realm, according to you, can never speak or think. The Buddha too would also be unable to speak or think. He would also be unable to feel any pain, yet he did all of those things. We also have suttas which talk of the Buddha entering and leaving different Jhānas and so on, yet still you persist with this delusion.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

Post by Joe.c »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:02 pm
Good luck. Can’t help with stubbornness. 😅

Without understanding 1st jhana properly, there won’t be any awakening unfortunately.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
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Re: jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

Post by frank k »

Joe.c wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:22 pm ...
So true. It needs commitment. This is why Buddha didn't teach householder Jhana, but only ask them to hear true dhamma to get right view.
Not all householders, but anyone who was serious about their practice, for example 500 lay follower friends of anathapindika, were told to practice to at least first and second jhana.


https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... #smd1-easy
AN 5.176 and AN 5.179 especially.

DN 18 says over 2 million lay followers attained stream entry. They couldn't have done that without at least first jhāna.
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