Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

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Gami47
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Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

Post by Gami47 »

:namaste:
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cappuccino
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Re: Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

Post by cappuccino »

Charles Xavier wrote:A gift can also be a curse. Give someone wings and they may fly too close to the sun. Give them the power of prophecy and they may live in fear of the future. Give them powers beyond imagination, and they may think they're meant to rule the world.
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

They can sometimes occur in an uncontrolled and chaotic manner with psychedelics
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


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SDC
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Re: Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

Post by SDC »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:52 pm They can sometimes occur in an uncontrolled and chaotic manner with psychedelics
Which ones?
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Inedible
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Re: Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

Post by Inedible »

It depends on what you mean by supernatural powers. If you have a low enough bar for them, you could balance paper or foil on a needle and move it with your mind. Sean McNamara has Kindle books on telekinesis you can get with detailed instructions. A couple of full spins may not impress anyone, but you will feel it and you will know you did it.
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

SDC wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:18 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:52 pm They can sometimes occur in an uncontrolled and chaotic manner with psychedelics
Which ones?
You can look into the research and reports with tryptamine based ones.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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SDC
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Re: Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

Post by SDC »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:31 am
SDC wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:18 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:52 pm They can sometimes occur in an uncontrolled and chaotic manner with psychedelics
Which ones?
You can look into the research and reports with tryptamine based ones.
I meant, which of the six knowledges can occur?
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Bundokji
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Re: Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

Post by Bundokji »

Right concentration is inseparable from the progress of insight. This helps define the supernatural (or supramundane) from the teachings perspective, avoiding confusing it with hallucination or superstitions. The mundane use of the word concentration is associated with zooming-in or magnifying. This could be achieved by science and modern technology, and could be considered supramundane when compared with more primitive tools like the naked eye.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

SDC wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:24 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:31 am
SDC wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:18 pm

Which ones?
You can look into the research and reports with tryptamine based ones.
I meant, which of the six knowledges can occur?
I don't expect this will be received well here and there will be unfounded assumptions about 'false hallucinations' etc, although the same accusations can be made about Jhanic visions. I was going to post reports for each of these but for this reason I have decided against it.

So I simply say from my knowledge these have occurred and are possible. They all I think could be made more reliable with meditative skill in conjunction but the states are unpredictable in how they seem to occur with psychedelics:

- Recollection of manifold past lives

- Out of body/astral travel ("the mind made body")

- Clairvoyance (remote viewing)

- Clairaudience ("hearing choirs of devas singing")

- Telepathy

- Some occasional and dubious reports of Telekinesis
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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SDC
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Re: Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

Post by SDC »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:34 pm So I simply say from my knowledge these have occurred and are possible.
Well, if it wasn’t your own experience that you were referring to, the claim would have zero credibility. I am still skeptical, as these are referred to as knowledge and not simply “access”. So, there would still have to be some understanding of why these abilities are available and possible. That seems to be a profound discernment that wouldn’t just disappear after the substance wore off. There is, however, cases of psychic powers becoming unavailable with diminished samadhi, so it isn’t totally out of the question.

In the end, I don’t think psychedelics have any use whatsoever when it comes to developing the things that actually matter to the path, so even if one were to have some temporary access, it is not of much use.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Meggo
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Re: Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

Post by Meggo »

seems so....

2600htz
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Re: Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

Post by 2600htz »

Hi:

I had some discussion on the what it means "perfect concentration" before.

But for example Devadatta not being ariya had supernatural powers, but he lost his capacity for right concentration after behaving badly.

Mogallanna due to past kamma was not able to use supernatural powers at the time murderers attacked him.

Did Mogallanna had perfect concentration?. 99.999% of times yes.
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Re: Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

Post by confusedlayman »

Gandhara charm..


Otherwise jhana is needed... even devadatta or any other outcaste astetic also have powers becauwe of jhana
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

Post by auto »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:52 pm They can sometimes occur in an uncontrolled and chaotic manner with psychedelics
When you are talking about subtle body and defending it that its real you mean the power you can tap into either by meditation or psychedelics like you talked in the qigong thread?

That's devoid of the teachings of the qualities(dhamma) the self(atta) acquires at the time of conception and destiny(gati).
There are pre-conception qualities,
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:the elements of earth, water, fire, air, space, and consciousness.
pathavīdhātu, āpodhātu, tejodhātu, vāyodhātu, ākāsadhātu, viññāṇadhātu.
based on this,
https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:Supported by the six elements, an embryo is conceived.
Channaṁ, bhikkhave, dhātūnaṁ upādāya gabbhassāvakkanti hoti;
I believe kasina practice thus is on these qualities to attain perfection, which is that the self acquires the perception of the earth.

There is a controverted point on it,
That the one who enters jhana by means of regarding earth as earth, then the knowledge about what is seen(whatever it may be) is hallucination because if to enter jhana then everything is earth(judged or biased) for the one who is in jhana.
This view relies on the notion that the earth is actually there, but as we know from the above the earth is a pre-conception support element. That means our perception of earth already is hallucination before entering jhana.
https://suttacentral.net/kv5.3/en/aung- ... ight=false
Therefore i think the Superpowers are unreal, hallucinations till 6th power what seals off the leaks is attained.
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