Insight into lower realms

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Bundokji
Posts: 6481
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Insight into lower realms

Post by Bundokji »

Friends,

Most discussions about meditation and its aim focuses on higher attainments or knowledge of higher realms. I would think that if one is to see the dangers of sensuality, access or knowledge of lower realms, especially hell, is not less important.

Are there any practices that helps generate insight into lower realms?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Jack19990101
Posts: 713
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:40 am

Re: Insight into lower realms

Post by Jack19990101 »

Not sure it will work. Ppl enjoy to take chances, press the luck, fluke the rebirth.
Inedible
Posts: 952
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:55 am
Location: Iowa City

Re: Insight into lower realms

Post by Inedible »

We can see what happens to animals without having psychic powers. They aren't all well cared for pets. And insects. We can see them, too. Hungry ghosts and hell residents have to be even more numerous than the insects. So there are signs out there.
SarathW
Posts: 21184
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Insight into lower realms

Post by SarathW »

Interesting question.
I asked the same question and Ven. Dhammanando said that humans can't experience the woeful states as they are so pathetic.
However, it seems that humans can experience the highest Brahma mental states.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Bundokji
Posts: 6481
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Insight into lower realms

Post by Bundokji »

Jack19990101 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:14 am Not sure it will work. Ppl enjoy to take chances, press the luck, fluke the rebirth.
Apart from taking chances, Ajahn Lee links this knowledge to manomayiddhi.

In the Buddhist cosmology series between Ajahn Sona and Ajahn Punnadhammo, when they spoke about the hell realm, they mentioned that most meditators do not talk about it, even though it is part of the teachings. Rebirth is not let less motivated by avoiding the lower than attaining the higher, and in a way, both are rooted in sensuality. Contemplating the lower realm, even at the most basic intellectual level, reveals that a part of us seeks self mortification. It seems as integral to the way we function as seeking pleasure.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Bundokji
Posts: 6481
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Insight into lower realms

Post by Bundokji »

Inedible wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:31 am We can see what happens to animals without having psychic powers. They aren't all well cared for pets. And insects. We can see them, too. Hungry ghosts and hell residents have to be even more numerous than the insects. So there are signs out there.
Interesting point. The animal realm is the only realm that is accessible to the ordinary person without higher knowledge. I am not sure if this is a real deterrent about the dangers of sensuality.

Perceiving animals as lower is in a way self-congratulatory by humans and rooted in being fixated about power and dominance rather than seeing suffering. To be honest, i do not see animals necessarily suffering more than humans. While we appear to have higher degree of control over the elements of nature, we have a lot of self inflicted misery that animals seem to be spared from.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Bundokji
Posts: 6481
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Insight into lower realms

Post by Bundokji »

SarathW wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:54 am I asked the same question and Ven. Dhammanando said that humans can't experience the woeful states as they are so pathetic.
However, it seems that humans can experience the highest Brahma mental states.
If i understand you correctly, knowledge of lower realms requires deeper insight than knowing higher ones?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
SarathW
Posts: 21184
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Insight into lower realms

Post by SarathW »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:09 am
SarathW wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:54 am I asked the same question and Ven. Dhammanando said that humans can't experience the woeful states as they are so pathetic.
However, it seems that humans can experience the highest Brahma mental states.
If i understand you correctly, knowledge of lower realms requires deeper insight than knowing higher ones?
No.
What venerable Dhammanado said was is so pathetic state a human can't mimic that state. It is one of those Dhamma Niyama perhaps.
It is like that a Sotapanna can't degenerate into an average layperson and Nibbana is assured of him.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
Johann
Posts: 619
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Insight into lower realms

Post by Johann »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:03 am Friends,

Most discussions about meditation and its aim focuses on higher attainments or knowledge of higher realms. I would think that if one is to see the dangers of sensuality, access or knowledge of lower realms, especially hell, is not less important.

Are there any practices that helps generate insight into lower realms?
Usually going forth, usually getting aware of it, and seriously practice in the "wide open" serves planty of the suffering in Samsara, good householder. And, at certain point, one might see the ways of beings according to their actions, inclinations. That's why all attainment are gained right here, nowhere outside.

Yet nobody, wise, would one suggest to seek after low states of mind, generate and develop in akusala, toward akusala and agati ways. Enough to see the around if eyes.

Good to be mindful when such stages arise and do all effort to abound them fast. "One knows when mind of such and such kind" Satipatthana. No need at all to follow them and wait even to their results. Saddha is here ones guide, ones protection.

And of course can being having gained a human birth experiance all lower states while still wearing this body, as well as that of higher.
Last edited by Johann on Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jack19990101
Posts: 713
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:40 am

Re: Insight into lower realms

Post by Jack19990101 »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:01 am
Jack19990101 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:14 am Not sure it will work. Ppl enjoy to take chances, press the luck, fluke the rebirth.
Apart from taking chances, Ajahn Lee links this knowledge to manomayiddhi.

In the Buddhist cosmology series between Ajahn Sona and Ajahn Punnadhammo, when they spoke about the hell realm, they mentioned that most meditators do not talk about it, even though it is part of the teachings. Rebirth is not let less motivated by avoiding the lower than attaining the higher, and in a way, both are rooted in sensuality. Contemplating the lower realm, even at the most basic intellectual level, reveals that a part of us seeks self mortification. It seems as integral to the way we function as seeking pleasure.
Metta

There is a sutta with description of Hell. forgotten the name. I would say it indeed tends to calm one down from heedlessness.
User avatar
mjaviem
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: Insight into lower realms

Post by mjaviem »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:03 am ...
Most discussions about meditation and its aim focuses on higher attainments or knowledge of higher realms...
Higher realms or other realms? The right understanding is there is this world and there is other world too both directly known by the Noble Ones if I'm correct. Whose discussions are about a higher realm aim of meditation?
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Joe.c
Posts: 1483
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Insight into lower realms

Post by Joe.c »

Most people have an experience similar to lower realm and higher realm, but they don't realize it.

Have you experience fear, sad, stress, any negative emotions? These are lower realm experience.

For example nowadays, the layoff that occured around the world. People who currently work fear losing their job.

Similarly most also have higher realm experience such as positive emotions such as laugh, happy, enjoyment, etc. For example, when you go to amusement park, you are happy enjoying the ride, food, etc. These are 5 senses experience.

To practice in dhamma to understand all these bad and good expriences and got rid the bad experiences first and replace with good experiences.

Eventually one grew tired of good experiences as well and transcend all 5 senses.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
Inedible
Posts: 952
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:55 am
Location: Iowa City

Re: Insight into lower realms

Post by Inedible »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:07 am Perceiving animals as lower is in a way self-congratulatory by humans and rooted in being fixated about power and dominance rather than seeing suffering.
Try saying that to an animal and be understood. Then get back to me on whether animals represent a lower realm.
Bundokji
Posts: 6481
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Insight into lower realms

Post by Bundokji »

mjaviem wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:53 am Higher realms or other realms? The right understanding is there is this world and there is other world too both directly known by the Noble Ones if I'm correct. Whose discussions are about a higher realm aim of meditation?
Seldom i encountered discussions where meditators aimed at having insight into lower realms. I guess both higher and lower realms become accessible to advanced practitioners/meditators?

The middle path is often presented in relation to extremes, or which hedonism and self mortification are two. Maybe contemplating lower realms could help differentiate ascetic practices by advanced practitioners and self mortification.

Self mortification could be driven by feeling debited. Seeking pleasure is often associated with guilt when there is too much suffering in the world. Worldly existence, as a social phenomena, gives the impression that roles are not stable. No one can be on the receiving side forever. We can always delay paying back, but eventually we are going to encounter our own kamma. If the hell-realm does not include a purification process of some sort, people would be stuck there forever. Emphasizing the ephemeral nature of all experiences, whether higher or lower, generates tolerance towards the unpleasant, or utilizing it to accumulate merit, showing patience and being less selective.

The elders also used the concept of time to convey certain messages. The lower the hell realm for instance, the longer the time one serves there. This could help to avoid turning impermanence into indifference.

I also just found out that there are two versions of Buddhist hell, a cold one and a hot one. This could allow for a more poetic portrayal of misery. I had the feeling that the cold hell would not be as terrible as the hot one if i had the choice.

Ajahn Lee described visiting the hell realm as fun:
Next is manomayiddhi, power in the area of the mind. The mind acquires power. What kind of power? You can go wherever you want. If you want to go sightseeing in hell, you can. If you want to get away from human beings, you can go sightseeing in hell. It's nice and relaxing. You can play with the denizens of hell, fool around with the denizens of hell. Any of them who have only a little bad kamma can come up and chat with you, to send word back to their relatives. Once you get back from touring around hell you can tell the relatives to make merit in the dead person's name.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
maniture_85
Posts: 205
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:25 pm

Re: Insight into lower realms

Post by maniture_85 »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:51 am
mjaviem wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:53 am Higher realms or other realms? The right understanding is there is this world and there is other world too both directly known by the Noble Ones if I'm correct. Whose discussions are about a higher realm aim of meditation?
Seldom i encountered discussions where meditators aimed at having insight into lower realms. I guess both higher and lower realms become accessible to advanced practitioners/meditators?

The middle path is often presented in relation to extremes, or which hedonism and self mortification are two. Maybe contemplating lower realms could help differentiate ascetic practices by advanced practitioners and self mortification.

Self mortification could be driven by feeling debited. Seeking pleasure is often associated with guilt when there is too much suffering in the world. Worldly existence, as a social phenomena, gives the impression that roles are not stable. No one can be on the receiving side forever. We can always delay paying back, but eventually we are going to encounter our own kamma. If the hell-realm does not include a purification process of some sort, people would be stuck there forever. Emphasizing the ephemeral nature of all experiences, whether higher or lower, generates tolerance towards the unpleasant, or utilizing it to accumulate merit, showing patience and being less selective.

The elders also used the concept of time to convey certain messages. The lower the hell realm for instance, the longer the time one serves there. This could help to avoid turning impermanence into indifference.

I also just found out that there are two versions of Buddhist hell, a cold one and a hot one. This could allow for a more poetic portrayal of misery. I had the feeling that the cold hell would not be as terrible as the hot one if i had the choice.

Ajahn Lee described visiting the hell realm as fun:
Next is manomayiddhi, power in the area of the mind. The mind acquires power. What kind of power? You can go wherever you want. If you want to go sightseeing in hell, you can. If you want to get away from human beings, you can go sightseeing in hell. It's nice and relaxing. You can play with the denizens of hell, fool around with the denizens of hell. Any of them who have only a little bad kamma can come up and chat with you, to send word back to their relatives. Once you get back from touring around hell you can tell the relatives to make merit in the dead person's name.
Very nice topic.
In Cattholicism, hell has cold and hot planes also.

I have made visiting hell (consciously?) part of my path.
viewtopic.php?t=42728

I think there are some prerequisites which are needed, since the danger of getting lost is high, and it could be dangerous for one's health and life.
In this view, both higher and lower realms have, in my opinion, to be equally seen and investigated.

:anjali:
Post Reply