Right speech

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
KathyLauren
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Re: Right speech

Post by KathyLauren »

thepea wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:01 am
KathyLauren wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:06 pm
thepea wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:11 am

If you let them, then it was your freedom of choice wasn’t it?
You cannot hurt the feelings of someone who is fully enlightened and is in full mastery of their emotions.

We are told to use only RIght Speech for the benefit of those who are not fully enlightened and not in full mastery of their emotions. Right Speech is a demonstration and practice of compassion.

Saying that other people's feelings are solely their business and not my responsibility is a demonstration of lack of compassion. You practice Right Speech in order to improve your own awareness and to stop creating your own bad kamma.

Kathy
I’m asking if speech is violent?

Even in the unenlightened, is it the sound that comes out of my mouth that hurts them? or the arrangement of letters on a screen that hurts them?

Am I even the slightest bit responsible for their hurt? Or is this 100% their own doing?

Excluding of course if I yelled into ones ear and caused hurt to the eardrum from decibel level.
You know the answer to that. Do not pretend that this is just about physical injury. You know it is not.

You know that the people you are talking to are unenlightened. (Don't quibble about lack of certainty. You know it.) You know that the words you speak will cause them to experience hurt. Sure, IF they were enlightened, they would not experience it that way, but you know that they are not enlightened and will experience it that way. A chain of events set in motion by your unkindness.

Whether or not you injure someone else with wrong speech, your lack of compassion in uttering it injures yourself. This is why the Buddha taught Right Speech.

Kathy
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Re: Right speech

Post by cappuccino »

KathyLauren wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:17 pm You know that the people you are talking to are unenlightened.
Even… on a Buddhist forum?
KathyLauren
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Re: Right speech

Post by KathyLauren »

cappuccino wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:20 pm
KathyLauren wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:17 pm You know that the people you are talking to are unenlightened.
Even… on a Buddhist forum?
Yes. Insert "many" or "most" if it makes you feel better, but it doesn't change my point.

Kathy
thepea
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Re: Right speech

Post by thepea »

KathyLauren wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:02 pm
cappuccino wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:20 pm
KathyLauren wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:17 pm You know that the people you are talking to are unenlightened.
Even… on a Buddhist forum?
Yes. Insert "many" or "most" if it makes you feel better, but it doesn't change my point.

Kathy
So.... I’m responsible for your kamma?
Am I comprehending you correctly?
Have we really reached this point where freedom of speech will be censored to protect the feelings of others?
Could you provide an example of my harmful speech?
KathyLauren
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Re: Right speech

Post by KathyLauren »

thepea wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:55 am So.... I’m responsible for your kamma?
Am I comprehending you correctly?
I said nothing of the sort. You are responsible for your own kamma.
Have we really reached this point where freedom of speech will be censored to protect the feelings of others?
Could you provide an example of my harmful speech?
That is pseudo-political nonsense. No one is talking about censorship. Only advocating for self-restraint for the benefit of your own kamma. This discussion is theoretical only. No one has made any accusations.

Kathy
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Right speech

Post by Ceisiwr »

thepea wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:55 am
KathyLauren wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:02 pm
cappuccino wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:20 pm

Even… on a Buddhist forum?
Yes. Insert "many" or "most" if it makes you feel better, but it doesn't change my point.

Kathy
So.... I’m responsible for your kamma?
Am I comprehending you correctly?
Have we really reached this point where freedom of speech will be censored to protect the feelings of others?
Could you provide an example of my harmful speech?
There are limits of free speech even in America. Obscenity is one such example. Would your view of free speech extend to sex acts being freely depicted on billboards?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
thepea
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Re: Right speech

Post by thepea »

KathyLauren wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:07 am
thepea wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:55 am So.... I’m responsible for your kamma?
Am I comprehending you correctly?
I said nothing of the sort. You are responsible for your own kamma.
Have we really reached this point where freedom of speech will be censored to protect the feelings of others?
Could you provide an example of my harmful speech?
That is pseudo-political nonsense. No one is talking about censorship. Only advocating for self-restraint for the benefit of your own kamma. This discussion is theoretical only. No one has made any accusations.

Kathy
Ok, I thought you were suggesting that I had been offensive to others.

Am I not free when face to face to speak to you about anything I desire?
If you don’t find value in what I’m saying you are free to silence or walk away. But if I say something that offends you, this is 100% on you. Is it not?
We either own our reactions 100% or we are victim of being asleep or unawakened.
thepea
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Re: Right speech

Post by thepea »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:44 pm
thepea wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:55 am
KathyLauren wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:02 pm

Yes. Insert "many" or "most" if it makes you feel better, but it doesn't change my point.

Kathy
So.... I’m responsible for your kamma?
Am I comprehending you correctly?
Have we really reached this point where freedom of speech will be censored to protect the feelings of others?
Could you provide an example of my harmful speech?
There are limits of free speech even in America. Obscenity is one such example. Would your view of free speech extend to sex acts being freely depicted on billboards?
That is evolving from day to day. I’m neither a liberal(left) or a conservative(right) as I find both of these to be extremism’s. I am middle way where I self govern as an adult. We do live in a society of children(of all ages) who are not capable of self regulation.
Let me ask you, who sets these rules of limited speech you will be forced to follow?
KathyLauren
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Re: Right speech

Post by KathyLauren »

thepea wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:04 am Am I not free when face to face to speak to you about anything I desire?
If you don’t find value in what I’m saying you are free to silence or walk away. But if I say something that offends you, this is 100% on you. Is it not?
We either own our reactions 100% or we are victim of being asleep or unawakened.
You are of course free to act as you wish. And you will experience consequences for what you do and say. That is not a rule made by men; it is the way the world works. The wise person will choose to act and speak in ways that will have happy and wholesome consequences.

Right Speech is a conduct that you may willingly choose. The Precepts and the Noble Eightfold Path are not commandments. They are conducts that we Buddhists willingly choose because we wish a more wholesome life.

When you speak, your words cause a reaction in the audience. An enlightened person can choose not to react. An unenlightened person, which describes the vast majority, cannot. You know this and therefore you are responsible for that reaction, caused by your words. If your words cause happiness to that person, you will benefit. If your words cause suffering, you will be be unhappy. That is how Kamma works.

So, no, the listener's suffering is not 100% on them. The listener is responsible for the unskilfulness of their reaction. You are responsible for the unkindness of your words. You either own your actions 100% or you are victim of being asleep or unawakened.

Kathy
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Sam Vara
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Re: Right speech

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:04 am
Am I not free when face to face to speak to you about anything I desire?
It depends on what you mean by "free". Your desires might exceed some people's expectations, so you cannot assume that you have their permission to speak about anything you desire. It's very easy to check this out, though; polite and caring people do it all the time.
If you don’t find value in what I’m saying you are free to silence or walk away. But if I say something that offends you, this is 100% on you. Is it not?
This doesn't make much sense as it stands, due to the imprecision involved in saying something is "on" someone. If you mean the kammic consequences, there are bad consequences attendant upon saying something just to offend them. Less so, if you have chosen the correct time and are speaking the truth with goodwill, but you still believe they might be offended.

If you mean that the causes or conditions for the offence felt by the listener are entirely to do with the listener, then this is clearly not the case. It is necessary that you or someone else speaks for the listener to be offended in that way. You would be part of the causes and conditions.
thepea
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Re: Right speech

Post by thepea »

KathyLauren wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:27 am
thepea wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:04 am Am I not free when face to face to speak to you about anything I desire?
If you don’t find value in what I’m saying you are free to silence or walk away. But if I say something that offends you, this is 100% on you. Is it not?
We either own our reactions 100% or we are victim of being asleep or unawakened.
You are of course free to act as you wish. And you will experience consequences for what you do and say. That is not a rule made by men; it is the way the world works. The wise person will choose to act and speak in ways that will have happy and wholesome consequences.

Right Speech is a conduct that you may willingly choose. The Precepts and the Noble Eightfold Path are not commandments. They are conducts that we Buddhists willingly choose because we wish a more wholesome life.

When you speak, your words cause a reaction in the audience. An enlightened person can choose not to react. An unenlightened person, which describes the vast majority, cannot. You know this and therefore you are responsible for that reaction, caused by your words. If your words cause happiness to that person, you will benefit. If your words cause suffering, you will be be unhappy. That is how Kamma works.

So, no, the listener's suffering is not 100% on them. The listener is responsible for the unskilfulness of their reaction. You are responsible for the unkindness of your words. You either own your actions 100% or you are victim of being asleep or unawakened.

Kathy
But you are not judge and jury of my volition. Only I am judge and jury of the volition of my words. I can best illustrate this with the freedom of speech’s most powerful aspect, silence. Silence must be included in right speech.
Just as an example, not to get into political discussion of Covid, I have gone out shopping and kept silent regarding masks or vaccine status, just as I’ve done for my entire life. I haven’t changed but the atmosphere seems to have changed. I’ve witnessed a variety of responses from bewilderment-to extreme anger without saying a word.
Can my silence be harmful to others, if I e taken a vow of silence for ten days or more in my laylife, can my silence going about day to day activities be harmful? Am I responsible for the reactions of others?
thepea
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Re: Right speech

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:38 pm
thepea wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:04 am
Am I not free when face to face to speak to you about anything I desire?
It depends on what you mean by "free". Your desires might exceed some people's expectations, so you cannot assume that you have their permission to speak about anything you desire. It's very easy to check this out, though; polite and caring people do it all the time.
If you don’t find value in what I’m saying you are free to silence or walk away. But if I say something that offends you, this is 100% on you. Is it not?
This doesn't make much sense as it stands, due to the imprecision involved in saying something is "on" someone. If you mean the kammic consequences, there are bad consequences attendant upon saying something just to offend them. Less so, if you have chosen the correct time and are speaking the truth with goodwill, but you still believe they might be offended.

If you mean that the causes or conditions for the offence felt by the listener are entirely to do with the listener, then this is clearly not the case. It is necessary that you or someone else speaks for the listener to be offended in that way. You would be part of the causes and conditions.
What you seem to be suggesting is that I bear some responsibility for your reaction. Take a situation like someone exercising their right to freedom of press by filming in a public space. Many individuals may become enraged at the thought of being filmed by an individual, yet if they look up to the ceiling the post office, government building, or Costco might have 6 to 12 cameras on them at any given time. The faceless corporation can film in public without issue yet the individual is offensive.
I’ve seen people arrested for silently filming in public exercising their freedom of press a constitutionally protected activity. Google earth can drive by a military base with cameras rolling, countless cars can drive by with eyes peering in without issue, but one man standing openly not hiding anything is usually contacted by police. Then if this individual remains silent they are considered uncooperative and can at times be arrested on escalated charges.
How do you answer to the single greatest speech offence, silence? Can one being silent be considered causing harm to others and breaching right speech?
KathyLauren
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Re: Right speech

Post by KathyLauren »

thepea wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:47 pm
But you are not judge and jury of my volition. Only I am judge and jury of the volition of my words. I can best illustrate this with the freedom of speech’s most powerful aspect, silence. Silence must be included in right speech.
Just as an example, not to get into political discussion of Covid, I have gone out shopping and kept silent regarding masks or vaccine status, just as I’ve done for my entire life. I haven’t changed but the atmosphere seems to have changed. I’ve witnessed a variety of responses from bewilderment-to extreme anger without saying a word.
Can my silence be harmful to others, if I e taken a vow of silence for ten days or more in my laylife, can my silence going about day to day activities be harmful? Am I responsible for the reactions of others?
Sorry, I have no idea what point you are trying to make, or how it might or might not relate to what I said. I am not judging you. I am only explaining how kamma works.

Kathy
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Sam Vara
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Re: Right speech

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:03 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:38 pm
thepea wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:04 am
Am I not free when face to face to speak to you about anything I desire?
It depends on what you mean by "free". Your desires might exceed some people's expectations, so you cannot assume that you have their permission to speak about anything you desire. It's very easy to check this out, though; polite and caring people do it all the time.
If you don’t find value in what I’m saying you are free to silence or walk away. But if I say something that offends you, this is 100% on you. Is it not?
This doesn't make much sense as it stands, due to the imprecision involved in saying something is "on" someone. If you mean the kammic consequences, there are bad consequences attendant upon saying something just to offend them. Less so, if you have chosen the correct time and are speaking the truth with goodwill, but you still believe they might be offended.

If you mean that the causes or conditions for the offence felt by the listener are entirely to do with the listener, then this is clearly not the case. It is necessary that you or someone else speaks for the listener to be offended in that way. You would be part of the causes and conditions.
What you seem to be suggesting is that I bear some responsibility for your reaction.
I don't think that the Buddha had a concept of "responsibility", as we think of it today. The two concepts I was referring to are kamma, and causality. If you act intentionally, there will be a kammic result. If you intend to offend someone simply because it gives you pleasure to think of the person being offended, then there will be a kammic result or vipaka. If you unintentionally offend someone, however, there is no such result.

With regard to causality, if you interact with a person and they are offended by that interaction, then clearly your action was the cause, and their feeling of being offended was the effect of what you did. This is the case irrespective of your intention.
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Re: Right speech

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:47 pm
Just as an example, not to get into political discussion of Covid,
Good! Please don't get into a political discussion of Covid. :thumbsup:
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