Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

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Alex123
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Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by Alex123 »

Hello all,

According to orthodox Theravadin cosmology, the lifespan of highest kama-loka Paranimitta-Vasavatti is 9.2 BILLION years. Are we to take this literally? That is longer than the time that planet Earth will most likely exist as a habitable planet, and our Sun will undergo major changes. That is ONE lifespan of those Devas (where Mara lives). In about 2 lifespans, the Sun will cease to exist as we know it (its corpse will remain as white dwarf).

So obviously it seems impossible for a person to be born as Mara, then after entire lifespan, get reborn as person on this planet Earth, or any planet in this solar system.

Also, I remember that it said that human lifespan goes from 10 years to 80,000 (or something like that). Obviously such excessive long lifespans don't make sense on THIS planet. Maybe other planets.


I really hope that what we have here is exaggeration of the numbers rather than them being literal. Anyone has any comments? Is there any evidence that excessive numbers are errors/hyperbole? Does anyone know what early Buddhist texts say, if anything, on this matter?

Thanks,

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Johann
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by Johann »

Does good householder remember "moments", time, of great bliss or great pain, which seemed immeasurable longer than ordinary passing by?

Maybe that gives some accessible comparisons to get ride of doubt of times in other states.
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by DNS »

It could be mythology, hagiography (in the case of previous Buddhas living thousands of years), or exaggeration. Or there could be the scientific explanation you alluded to, which is that it could be referring to another world system, another solar system.

Our planet, Earth takes 365.25 days to revolve around the sun. Mercury only takes 87 days. So one "year" on Mercury is just 87 (earth) days. Another solar system with life on it, would have a similar variety of how long a year would be.
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by Coëmgenu »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:17 pmAccording to orthodox Theravadin cosmology, the lifespan of highest kama-loka Paranimitta-Vasavatti is 9.2 BILLION years. Are we to take this literally?
Keep in mind that only the gods live there. Whether we take "gods" literally is another matter. In the past, on this earth, there are what is presently considered impossible lifespans attributed to human beings. The same is with ancient Greek beliefs concerning the different ages of the past. Humans are also said to be taller, much taller, the further you go back into history. Buddhism, as it has been inherited by us, carries with it its Iron Age origins. This Iron Age worldview, and later classical and medieval elaborations on it, are what most Buddhists in history have believed. If it is wrong, it simply demonstrates that cosmology is not necessary for realization.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by DNS »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:21 pm
Alex123 wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:17 pmAccording to orthodox Theravadin cosmology, the lifespan of highest kama-loka Paranimitta-Vasavatti is 9.2 BILLION years. Are we to take this literally?
Keep in mind that only the gods live there. Whether we take "gods" literally is another matter. In the past, on this earth, there are what is presently considered impossible lifespans attributed to human beings. The same is with ancient Greek beliefs concerning the different ages of the past. Humans are also said to be taller, much taller, the further you go back into history. Buddhism, as it has been inherited by us, carries with it its Iron Age origins. This Iron Age worldview, and later classical and medieval elaborations on it, are what most Buddhists in history have believed. If it is wrong, it simply demonstrates that cosmology is not necessary for realization.
That's right, I was going to mention that too, that the 'place' where gods dwell doesn't necessarily have to be on earth or any other planet, as traditional cosmology goes.

It does become an issue though, for the previous Buddhas, which taken literally, does sound like they lived on planet earth. Some of them are said to have lived thousands of years and if I'm not mistaken, also several hundred or thousands of feet tall. The Jains have almost identical stories regarding their past tirthankaras, as well.
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by Coëmgenu »

DNS wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:28 pmthe 'place' where gods dwell doesn't necessarily have to be on earth or any other planet, as traditional cosmology goes.
I think that when "planets" show up in Dharmic cosmologies, Hindu or Jain or Buddhist, that is a modernism. I think that, in the Iron Age, these heavens were literally above the flat earth in the airs and empty spaces of the ākāśa. That being said, I'm not knocking interpreting heavens and the contents of other lokadhātus as being things like "planets."
What is the Uncreated?
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It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by cappuccino »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:17 pm Anyone has any comments?
Makes sense when you contrast with Nirvana dimension


Which is everlasting (Forever)
Last edited by cappuccino on Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by Coëmgenu »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:31 pmliterally above the flat earth in the airs and empty spaces of the ākāśa
We actually retain this intuitive and very human notion in our predominantly English-speaking society of the present. In English, when we speak of "the heavens," it's possible that we are referring to the "7-or-so" heavens of Abrahamic cosmology, but we are equally, more likely, referring to the modern notion of "outer space" and the celestial bodies therein.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by Ceisiwr »

I've noticed that Indian religious literature tends to like big numbers. Be it Buddhist, Jain, what we know of the Ajivikas etc there is this tendency.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by Coëmgenu »

They were also very mathematically advanced for their time. We famously get "zero" from India. Mahāyāna sūtras carry this preoccupation with enumeration to wild heights, containing within them numbers like 10¹⁴⁰.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:26 pm They were also very mathematically advanced for their time. We famously get "zero" from India. Mahāyāna sūtras carry this preoccupation with enumeration to wild heights, containing within them numbers like 10¹⁴⁰.
Yes I have heard this. I remember reading the vedas had some impressive things to say regarding astronomy, for their time.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by Ceisiwr »

Anyway, I see Buddhists texts as following this same style. It's a way of teaching that was common to India at the time.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:22 pm I've noticed that Indian religious literature tends to like big numbers.
And Star Trek
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Alex123
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by Alex123 »

DNS wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:19 pm It could be mythology, hagiography (in the case of previous Buddhas living thousands of years), or exaggeration. Or there could be the scientific explanation you alluded to, which is that it could be referring to another world system, another solar system.

Our planet, Earth takes 365.25 days to revolve around the sun. Mercury only takes 87 days. So one "year" on Mercury is just 87 (earth) days. Another solar system with life on it, would have a similar variety of how long a year would be.
So using the above logic, lets say we take "Tavatimsa heaven" where 1 day there is 100 human years. It means that the year on this hypothetical planet is 365x100 = 36,500 human years.

Just for reference, a year at Pluto (which was once considered to be the most distant discovered planet, no longer considered to be a planet) takes only ~247-248 human years to travel around the sun once.


So the planet for Tavatimsa heaven would be >100 times further than Pluto is from Sun.


An interesting mythical note: If the 36,500 year orbit is 10x less, it appears to be very close to orbit of alleged, mythological Planet X (Nibiru).
Last edited by Alex123 on Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by dharmacorps »

To a mosquito, you have an "impossibly" long lifetime.
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