Vinnana v. Phassa

[Coëmgenu]

It doesn't really matter who "thinks differently." Everyone thinks differently. Who is actually reading these texts and who is reading them with rose-tinted glasses is the issue, and furthermore who is actually interfacing with the Dhamma as inherited by the Saṃgha and whose Saṃgha-inheritance is trustworthy.

[Spiny Norman]

“And what is suffering, what is the origin of suffering, what is the cessation of suffering, what is the way leading to the cessation of suffering? Birth is suffering; ageing is suffering; sickness is suffering; death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair are suffering; not to obtain what one wants is suffering; in short, the five aggregates affected by clinging are suffering. This is called suffering." - MN 9

Pain is the 1st dart, grief the 2nd to give a brief example from above. The 1st dart is still a dart

Logically the cessation of dukkha should apply to all those causes of dukkha.
If grief ceases to be a cause of dukkha, then so should pain.

According to the Arrow Sutta, the noble disciple is disjoined from the feeling of pain, and disjoined from suffering.

[Ceisiwr]

“And what is suffering, what is the origin of suffering, what is the cessation of suffering, what is the way leading to the cessation of suffering? Birth is suffering; ageing is suffering; sickness is suffering; death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair are suffering; not to obtain what one wants is suffering; in short, the five aggregates affected by clinging are suffering. This is called suffering." - MN 9

Pain is the 1st dart, grief the 2nd to give a brief example from above. The 1st dart is still a dart

Logically the cessation of dukkha should apply to all those causes of dukkha.
If grief ceases to be a cause of dukkha, then so should pain.

Grief isn't the cause of dukkha. It is dukkha. The same with pain. They do cease upon awakening. Pain and grief will no longer arise in a future life, since when ignorance is gone none of the other links can ever arise again. What is left is current pain, as that arose with ignorance as condition as per the 2nd Noble Truth.

[asahi]

Due to ignorance one perform white kamma and dark kamma and resulted in future becoming thus rebirth . With birth of new five aggregates , due to the vipaka one experience physical and mental suffering . Therefore , what is the outcome of kamma is still not out of samsara hence suffering . Even when the ignorance gets eliminated and with this ending of kamma , all experiences including painful feeling to be felt which is the vipaka are not yet can be excluded from dukkha sacca . The arahants only cut it off at the roots , doesnt mean all of the vipaka totally get exhausted instantly .

[Ceisiwr]

Due to ignorance one perform white kamma and dark kamma and resulted in future becoming thus rebirth . With birth of new five aggregates , due to the vipaka one experience physical and mental suffering . Therefore , what is the outcome of kamma is still not out of samsara hence suffering . Even when the ignorance gets eliminated and with this ending of kamma , all experiences including painful feeling to be felt which is the vipaka are not yet can be excluded from dukkha sacca . The arahants only cut it off at the roots , doesnt mean all of the vipaka totally get exhausted instantly .

“And what, bhikkhus, is old kamma? The eye is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by volition, as something to be felt. The ear is old kamma … The mind is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by volition, as something to be felt. This is called old kamma.

“And what, bhikkhus is new kamma? Whatever action one does now by body, speech, or mind. This is called new kamma.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the cessation of kamma? When one reaches liberation through the cessation of bodily action, verbal action, and mental action, this is called the cessation of kamma.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the way leading to the cessation of kamma? It is this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.146/en/bo ... ight=false

And the eye etc is suffering

“Bhikkhus, the arising, continuation, production, and manifestation of the eye is the arising of suffering, the continuation of disease, the manifestation of aging-and-death. The arising of the ear … the nose … the tongue … the body … the mind is the arising of suffering, the continuation of disease, the manifestation of aging-and-death.

“The cessation, subsiding, and passing away of the eye … the mind is the cessation of suffering, the subsiding of disease, the passing away of aging-and-death.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.21/en/bod ... ight=false

[Spiny Norman]

“And what is suffering, what is the origin of suffering, what is the cessation of suffering, what is the way leading to the cessation of suffering? Birth is suffering; ageing is suffering; sickness is suffering; death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair are suffering; not to obtain what one wants is suffering; in short, the five aggregates affected by clinging are suffering. This is called suffering." - MN 9

Pain is the 1st dart, grief the 2nd to give a brief example from above. The 1st dart is still a dart

Logically the cessation of dukkha should apply to all those causes of dukkha.
If grief ceases to be a cause of dukkha, then so should pain.

Grief isn't the cause of dukkha. It is dukkha. The same with pain. They do cease upon awakening. Pain and grief will no longer arise in the future, since when ignorance is gone none of the other links can ever arise again. What is left is current pain, as that arose with ignorance as condition as per the 2nd Noble Truth.

Clearly bodily pain doesn't cease upon awakening. But it ceases to be a source of dukkha, because the Arahant is disjoined from it.
Likewise aging, sickness and death, since the Arahant no longer identifies with the body as "me" and "mine".

[Ceisiwr]

Logically the cessation of dukkha should apply to all those causes of dukkha.
If grief ceases to be a cause of dukkha, then so should pain.

Grief isn't the cause of dukkha. It is dukkha. The same with pain. They do cease upon awakening. Pain and grief will no longer arise in the future, since when ignorance is gone none of the other links can ever arise again. What is left is current pain, as that arose with ignorance as condition as per the 2nd Noble Truth.

Clearly bodily pain doesn't cease upon awakening. But it ceases to be a source of dukkha, because the Arahant is disjoined from it.
Likewise aging, sickness and death.

Clearly. They cease to be a condition for the 2nd dart, but they remain as the 1st dart. They are there because before the person awakened they were ignorant and engaged in kamma, and because of that they now have a body and mind which ages, gets sick and dies all of which are inherently dukkha. They will cease eventually, and since there is no more ignorance and kamma there will be no more pain or grief, no more birth or death. That was their last birth.

[Spiny Norman]

Grief isn't the cause of dukkha. It is dukkha. The same with pain. They do cease upon awakening. Pain and grief will no longer arise in the future, since when ignorance is gone none of the other links can ever arise again. What is left is current pain, as that arose with ignorance as condition as per the 2nd Noble Truth.

Clearly bodily pain doesn't cease upon awakening. But it ceases to be a source of dukkha, because the Arahant is disjoined from it.
Likewise aging, sickness and death.

Clearly. They cease to be a condition for the 2nd dart, but they remain as the 1st dart. They are there because before the person awakened they were ignorant and engaged in kamma, and because of that they now have a body and mind which ages, gets sick and dies all of which are inherently dukkha. They will cease eventually, and since there is no more ignorance and kamma there will be no more pain or grief, no more birth or death. That was their last birth.

I don't agree. Logically all dukkha ceases for the Arahant. This is because dukkha is summarised as the clinging aggregates, and those have ceased for the Arahant (see the distinction in the Aggregates Sutta).
No more clinging aggregates = no more dukkha.

[asahi]

I think people may have forgotten in reality that to have a physical body is a kind of suffering , whether one is awakened or not . For example , imagine if you are enlightened and are able to live for 1 million years , your body will still continuously experiencing all kind of sicknesses , torture by painful feeling , including hungers and thirst , everyday go for almsround , get bully by people , attack by other enemies , going through wars , infected by virus while in the crisis of global epidemic etc etc , now , for 1 million years , does this kind of life is bearable ? I would say even to live for 200 years , the aging and sickly body get so tired that one would wish for instant death .

[Ceisiwr]

Clearly bodily pain doesn't cease upon awakening. But it ceases to be a source of dukkha, because the Arahant is disjoined from it.
Likewise aging, sickness and death.

Clearly. They cease to be a condition for the 2nd dart, but they remain as the 1st dart. They are there because before the person awakened they were ignorant and engaged in kamma, and because of that they now have a body and mind which ages, gets sick and dies all of which are inherently dukkha. They will cease eventually, and since there is no more ignorance and kamma there will be no more pain or grief, no more birth or death. That was their last birth.

I don't agree. Logically all dukkha ceases for the Arahant. This is because dukkha is summarised as the clinging aggregates, and those have ceased for the Arahant (see the distinction in the Aggregates Sutta).
No more clinging aggregates = no more dukkha.

What follows clinging in dependent origination? If all dukkha immediately ceased for the Buddhas and Arahants, they wouldn't experience any pain. This would mean they didn't experience any sense contacts, meaning in turn they had no sense organs nor body nor mind. How then did the Buddha teach the Dhamma in your view and why did he say he was in pain? Also, do you think the Buddhas and Arahants do not experience any aggregates at all then?

[cappuccino]

No more clinging aggregates = no more dukkha.

Again annihilationism

[Spiny Norman]

Clearly. They cease to be a condition for the 2nd dart, but they remain as the 1st dart. They are there because before the person awakened they were ignorant and engaged in kamma, and because of that they now have a body and mind which ages, gets sick and dies all of which are inherently dukkha. They will cease eventually, and since there is no more ignorance and kamma there will be no more pain or grief, no more birth or death. That was their last birth.

I don't agree. Logically all dukkha ceases for the Arahant. This is because dukkha is summarised as the clinging aggregates, and those have ceased for the Arahant (see the distinction in the Aggregates Sutta).
No more clinging aggregates = no more dukkha.

What follows clinging in dependent origination? If all dukkha immediately ceased for the Buddhas and Arahants, they wouldn't experience any pain. This would mean they didn't experience any sense contacts, meaning in turn they had no sense organs nor body nor mind. How then did the Buddha teach the Dhamma in your view and why did he say he was in pain? Also, do you think the Buddhas and Arahants do not experience any aggregates at all then?

I've already explained that the Arahant is disjoined from pain (Arrow Sutta), so that it is no longer a source of dukkha.
I've already explained that non-clinging aggregates continue for the Arahant, but that clinging aggregates cease (Aggregates Sutta SN22.48).

[Spiny Norman]

No more clinging aggregates = no more dukkha.

Again annihilationism

Wrong. Read the Agregates Sutta (SN22.48) and note the distinction it makes.
Also please read these discussions properly, rather than just making irrelevant knee-jerk posts.

[SDC]

Who is actually reading these texts and who is reading them with rose-tinted glasses is the issue, and furthermore who is actually interfacing with the Dhamma as inherited by the Saṃgha and whose Saṃgha-inheritance is trustworthy.

Have you been assigned to do PR for some school’s interpretation of the Dhamma? “Picking a side” is a sixteenth of the battle. Doing the work and confirming that your pick was right is everything else. Unless the affiliation is all a person is interested in. And, whether you like it or not, what is being discussed on this forum is mostly about picking sides. If it weren’t, we wouldn’t being seeing so many displays of discomfort on account of reading what is not preferred.

So, it may be an issue for you…

[Ceisiwr]

I don't agree. Logically all dukkha ceases for the Arahant. This is because dukkha is summarised as the clinging aggregates, and those have ceased for the Arahant (see the distinction in the Aggregates Sutta).
No more clinging aggregates = no more dukkha.

What follows clinging in dependent origination? If all dukkha immediately ceased for the Buddhas and Arahants, they wouldn't experience any pain. This would mean they didn't experience any sense contacts, meaning in turn they had no sense organs nor body nor mind. How then did the Buddha teach the Dhamma in your view and why did he say he was in pain? Also, do you think the Buddhas and Arahants do not experience any aggregates at all then?

I've already explained that the Arahant is disjoined from pain (Arrow Sutta), so that it is no longer a source of dukkha.
I've already explained that non-clinging aggregates continue for the Arahant, but that clinging aggregates cease (Aggregates Sutta).

If he experiences pain, then he is experiencing dukkha since both the 1st dart (pain) and the 2nd dart (grief) are defined as dukkha itself in the 1st Noble Truth. If he experiences the aggregates, he also experiences dukkha since those aggregates are impermanent, dukkha and not-self. If you want to say he experiences aggregates which are not dukkha you can, but that would mean they are unconditioned. How can conditioned dhammas be free of dukkha? Is that something the Buddha taught, that what is impermanent is not also dukkha?

You also did not answer my question. What follows clinging in dependent origination?