Dhammas, Truth and Reality

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by Ceisiwr »

This has come up in another thread, and i'd like to discuss it. What does this sutta mean to you?

“Mendicants, these four things are real, not unreal, not otherwise. What four? ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’ … These four things are real, not unreal, not otherwise. That’s why you should practice meditation …” - SN 56.20
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Johann
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Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by Johann »

Like always are those thieved translation useless and just reflect the lack of ñāṇa and vijjā at once... but they like to meditate, good householder, on what not grasped.

Sāmaññaphala has steps.
Last edited by Johann on Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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robertk
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Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by robertk »

The sutta last line reads:

Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, ‘idaṁ dukkhan’ti yogo karaṇīyo …pe… ‘ayaṁ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā’ti yogo karaṇīyo”ti.

Sujato translation has "That’s why you should practice meditation …” :o

Bodhi (accurately): Therefore, bhikkhu, an exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is suffering.’… An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.
Jack19990101
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Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by Jack19990101 »

It talks that 4 noble truth can be actualized by training, 4 noble truth is not abstract.
It is not talking about state of dhammas.
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mikenz66
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Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by mikenz66 »

robertk wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:19 am The sutta last line reads:

Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, ‘idaṁ dukkhan’ti yogo karaṇīyo …pe… ‘ayaṁ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā’ti yogo karaṇīyo”ti.

Sujato translation has "That’s why you should practice meditation …” :o

Bodhi (accurately): Therefore, bhikkhu, an exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is suffering.’… An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.
Though some of the wording is questionable, do note that Bhikkhu Sujato abbreviates that paragraph, indicated by the ... since it is repeated in previous suttas.

See: https://suttacentral.net/sn56.1
Bodhi: “Therefore, bhikkhus, an exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the origin of suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the cessation of suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’”

Sujato: That’s why you should practice meditation to understand: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’.”

Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, ‘idaṁ dukkhan’ti yogo karaṇīyo, ‘ayaṁ dukkhasamudayo’ti yogo karaṇīyo, ‘ayaṁ dukkhanirodho’ti yogo karaṇīyo, ‘ayaṁ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā’ti yogo karaṇīyo”ti.
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SarathW
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Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by SarathW »

mikenz66 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:20 am
robertk wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:19 am The sutta last line reads:

Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, ‘idaṁ dukkhan’ti yogo karaṇīyo …pe… ‘ayaṁ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā’ti yogo karaṇīyo”ti.

Sujato translation has "That’s why you should practice meditation …” :o

Bodhi (accurately): Therefore, bhikkhu, an exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is suffering.’… An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.
Though some of the wording is questionable, do note that Bhikkhu Sujato abbreviates that paragraph, indicated by the ... since it is repeated in previous suttas.

See: https://suttacentral.net/sn56.1
Bodhi: “Therefore, bhikkhus, an exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the origin of suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the cessation of suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’”

Sujato: That’s why you should practice meditation to understand: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’.”

Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, ‘idaṁ dukkhan’ti yogo karaṇīyo, ‘ayaṁ dukkhasamudayo’ti yogo karaṇīyo, ‘ayaṁ dukkhanirodho’ti yogo karaṇīyo, ‘ayaṁ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā’ti yogo karaṇīyo”ti.
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Mike
'Thank you Mike for the clarification.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Dukkha is real, because suffering is real. It is *the* problem being addressed (... not "rebirth" :lol: ). If such an obvious truth is rejected or not believed to be real, there is no use proceeding to the next three truths.

Samudaya and Nirodha are real, because as per SN 12.20 "Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this regularity of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma, this this/that conditionality"

As something that is real, Magga refers to the truth of the path as leading to Nirodha, to nibbana. Each person's individual path however, is fabricated, hence the simile of the raft.

Dependently originated things (paticcasamuppanne) are fabricated dhammas, thus do not warrant being regarded as real, because they are the products of avijja. (Again, SN 12.20). The only thing real about them is that they are dukkha, anatta, anicca and suñña.

An exertion should be made to understand this.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Johann
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Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by Johann »

“Therefore, an effort should be made to see: ‘This is Avijja.’ An effort should be made to see: ‘This is the origin of Avijja.’ An effort should be made to see: ‘This is the cessation of Avijja.’ An effort should be made to see: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of Avijja.’”

Thoughts? Avijjas?

(like most required intro to get the message censured... to defuse the trace out)
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mjaviem
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Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:01 am This has come up in another thread, and i'd like to discuss it. What does this sutta mean to you?

“Mendicants, these four things are real, not unreal, not otherwise. What four? ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’ … These four things are real, not unreal, not otherwise. That’s why you should practice meditation …” - SN 56.20
To me it means these truths are certain and you can count on them unlike other things that are uncertain and we should never count on them.

The meaning of anicca is uncertain or unreliable. You can not rely on things because they will fail, or change, or betray you, or end, or prove to be otherwise, etc. But these truths can't fail, can't change, can't betray you, can't end, and can't turn to be otherwise. However...

What I don't understand is the letting go of these truths, of the raft. How is it that they cannot be taken as our true self, our very essence.
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Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by asahi »

Dukkha is real, because suffering is real , but suffering is due to ignorance ....clinging , yet without birth of a body , is there clinging and suffering ?
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Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by mjaviem »

asahi wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:12 pm Dukkha is real, because suffering is real , but suffering is due to ignorance ....clinging , yet without birth of a body , is there clinging and suffering ?
To suffer, you only need the birth of you, even if born without a body. The only way to be born is by existing, even if existing without a body. The only way of existing is by clinging, even if there is no body clinging.
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Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by asahi »

mjaviem wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:23 pm To suffer, you only need the birth of you, even if born without a body. The only way to be born is by existing, even if existing without a body. The only way of existing is by clinging, even if there is no body clinging.
Right but where are the "you" ? What are the "you" ? Please be specific and plain . :thanks:
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Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by mjaviem »

asahi wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 5:18 pm
mjaviem wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:23 pm To suffer, you only need the birth of you, even if born without a body. The only way to be born is by existing, even if existing without a body. The only way of existing is by clinging, even if there is no body clinging.
Right but where are the "you" ? What are the "you" ? Please be specific and plain . :thanks:
You happens when clinging. The existence is of you. It's like an electric machine, you turn the switch on and there is the roar of the machine, but if you turn it off the noise goes out. With clinging there's becoming (of "you") but without clinging this noise goes out.
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Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by asahi »

mjaviem wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 5:41 pm You happens when clinging. The existence is of you. It's like an electric machine, you turn the switch on and there is the roar of the machine, but if you turn it off the noise goes out. With clinging there's becoming (of "you") but without clinging this noise goes out.
Please directly point out which which ? I could not get what you are saying . Dont use analogy .
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mjaviem
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Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by mjaviem »

asahi wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 5:49 pm Please directly point out which which ? I could not get what you are saying . Dont use analogy .
Which–which what? "You" is a delusion, it's not possible to say the "you" is here or there or anywhere. Not possible to say "this is the you" either. "You" is simply a consequence of clinging. You become due to clinging. I'm sorry I can't make myself more clear. Perhaps you can expando on your question and your current understanding?
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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