How to see becoming->(re)birth in Dependent Origination?

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Alex123
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How to see becoming->(re)birth in Dependent Origination?

Post by Alex123 »

Hello all,

From what I understand/remember, a sotapanna has known & seen dependent origination. When it comes to most factors, I see no problem how they can be seen moment-to-moment. Also literal birth->aging&death is as clear as all triangles have 3 angles.

There is one link that seems problematic. It is bhava->jati. How can it be seen other than through psychic powers which even some Arahants don't seem to have?

Thanks,
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Ceisiwr
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Re: How to see becoming->(re)birth in Dependent Origination?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex123 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:25 pm Hello all,

From what I understand/remember, a sotapanna has known & seen dependent origination. When it comes to most factors, I see no problem how they can be seen moment-to-moment. Also literal birth->aging&death is as clear as all triangles have 3 angles.

There is one link that seems problematic. It is bhava->jati. How can it be seen other than through psychic powers which even some Arahants don't seem to have?

Thanks,
You don’t have to literally see them, like pictures on a screen flashing in front of you. You have to really understand them (panna). The understanding is seeing.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: How to see becoming->(re)birth in Dependent Origination?

Post by Johann »

Alex123 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:25 pm Hello all,

From what I understand/remember, a sotapanna has known & seen dependent origination. When it comes to most factors, I see no problem how they can be seen moment-to-moment. Also literal birth->aging&death is as clear as all triangles have 3 angles.

There is one link that seems problematic. It is bhava->jati. How can it be seen other than through psychic powers which even some Arahants don't seem to have?

Thanks,
Become on form, sound...thought, taking a stand (jati) and dies off right there and taking on another stand, good householder. To be seen right here,

Why taking on form, sound...thought? Because of not knowing that relay is subject to decay. Not aware of the wheel of wandering on, from one stand to another... delight once here, once there.
Last edited by Johann on Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Alex123
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Re: How to see becoming->(re)birth in Dependent Origination?

Post by Alex123 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:37 pm You don’t have to literally see them, like pictures on a screen flashing in front of you. You have to really understand them (panna). The understanding is seeing.
Ok, how do I understand that bhava->jati?


I understand the biological aspect of birth (healthy parents doing it...) . I don't see (only try to believe) that there needs to be a "3rd" mental stream for conception & later birth to happen.
asahi
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Re: How to see becoming->(re)birth in Dependent Origination?

Post by asahi »

Alex123 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:58 pm "3rd" mental stream for conception
Hi , what is above refer to ?
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mjaviem
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Re: How to see becoming->(re)birth in Dependent Origination?

Post by mjaviem »

Alex123 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:25 pm ...
From what I understand/remember, a sotapanna has known & seen dependent origination. When it comes to most factors, I see no problem how they can be seen moment-to-moment. Also literal birth->aging&death is as clear as all triangles have 3 angles.

There is one link that seems problematic. It is bhava->jati. How can it be seen other than through psychic powers which even some Arahants don't seem to have?
...
I think they understand anicca. So perhaps they understand something like this:

If born then must exist. And as nothing last forever, not even the very existence (on any realm) then existence means birth too. There must have been a moment when not existing (in this realm) so must have been born (in this realm).
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Alex123
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Re: How to see becoming->(re)birth in Dependent Origination?

Post by Alex123 »

asahi wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:03 pm
Alex123 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:58 pm "3rd" mental stream for conception
Hi , what is above refer to ?
A "Being", Gandhaba, mental stream (call it what you will) about to reborn.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: How to see becoming->(re)birth in Dependent Origination?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Perhaps the story of The Weaver’s Daughter will make it clear.

Before this dialogue with the Buddha, she was a puthujjana; afterwards she became a Stream-winner. She had no psychic powers, but she gained the eye of the Dhamma that can see the four noble truths.

“Young girl, where have you come from?”
“I do not know, Lord” she replied.

“Young girl, to where are you going?”
“I do not know, Lord” she replied.

“Do you not know?”
“I know, Lord” she replied.

“Do you know?”
“I do not know, Lord” she replied.

The villagers were baffled by her answers. Some thought she was being cheeky, and started scolding her, “Why don’t you tell the Buddha that you came from the spinning-shed, and are going to your father’s house?”

The Buddha silenced them and asked the girl to explain her answers. The girl replied:

“When you asked, ‘Where have you come from?’ you didn’t want to know that I came from the spinning-shed; you meant to ask from which existence I came to this one. So I replied that I do not know.”

“When you asked, ‘To where are you going?’ you meant to ask to which existence I am going after this one, so I again replied that I do not know.”

“When you asked, ‘Do you not know?’ you meant to ask, ‘Do you not know that you will die?’ so I replied that I know I will die.”

“When you asked, ‘Do you know?’ you meant to ask, ‘Do you know when you will die?’ so I replied that I do not know when I will die.”

The Buddha praised the girl for her intelligent answers, and the villagers were amazed. The Buddha then spoke the following verse:

“Blind is this world,
Only a few can see clearly.
Like birds that escape from a net,
Only a few go to a blissful state.” (Dhp v 174)

The girl realised nibbāna and became a Stream-winner on hearing this verse.
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asahi
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Re: How to see becoming->(re)birth in Dependent Origination?

Post by asahi »

The girl realised the Dhamma not nibbana .
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Re: How to see becoming->(re)birth in Dependent Origination?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

asahi wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 5:56 pm The girl realised the Dhamma not nibbana .
They are the same thing. When someone realises nibbāna for the first time they become a Stream-winner, gain right-view, destroy personality view, dispel doubts, and attachment to rituals. Thereafter, they must practise meditation more to attain the higher paths.
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Alex123
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Re: How to see becoming->(re)birth in Dependent Origination?

Post by Alex123 »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 5:47 pm Perhaps the story of The Weaver’s Daughter will make it clear.

Before this dialogue with the Buddha, she was a puthujjana; afterwards she became a Stream-winner. She had no psychic powers, but she gained the eye of the Dhamma that can see the four noble truths.
Thank you, Bhante!

So it means that different people enter the Stream through different aspects (she did Maranasati?) of the same Teaching. It doesn't always have to be an exact checklist of specific things.


Thanks.
:namaste:
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Re: How to see becoming->(re)birth in Dependent Origination?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:37 pm ...

You don’t have to literally see them, like pictures on a screen flashing in front of you. You have to really understand them (panna). The understanding is seeing.
:goodpost:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Re: How to see becoming->(re)birth in Dependent Origination?

Post by pegembara »

Alex123 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:25 pm Hello all,

From what I understand/remember, a sotapanna has known & seen dependent origination. When it comes to most factors, I see no problem how they can be seen moment-to-moment. Also literal birth->aging&death is as clear as all triangles have 3 angles.

There is one link that seems problematic. It is bhava->jati. How can it be seen other than through psychic powers which even some Arahants don't seem to have?

Thanks,
Bhava- being, worldly existence, becoming, be, production, origin
Jati is a Sanskrit word meaning "birth."

When you identify with or become that "person", you literally pick up birth, ageing and death. You also pick up his personality, form, family and literally wear his skin and inhabit his thoughts or rather his thoughts become yours.
"Monks, I will teach you the burden, the carrier of the burden, the taking up of the burden, and the casting off of the burden. [1] Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

A burden indeed
are the five aggregates,
and the carrier of the burden
is the person.
Taking up the burden in the world
is stressful.
Casting off the burden
is bliss.
Having cast off the heavy burden
and not taking on another,

pulling up craving,
along with its root,
one is free from hunger,
totally unbound.


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Post by sunnat »

Understanding is a guide to making actual progress on the path which only happens by direct experience.

A simple simile is hearing ( sutamaya panna ) that there is a good meal to be had in a particular restaurant and then going there to read a menu and discussing with the waiter, the cook and other customers about the contents and taste of a meal. This leads to a mundane understanding ( book knowledge, cintamaya panna ) but true understanding ( true knowledge, bhavanamaya panna, wisdom ) comes after putting the meal in the mouth and experiencing the results and it is that bhavanamaya panna that signals progress.

Likewise becoming, and dependent origination in general, may be understood in a mundane book sense but it is the experiencing of it by the training and practicing and tasting meditation that leads to true knowledge.
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Re: How to see becoming->(re)birth in Dependent Origination?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:37 pm
Alex123 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:25 pm Hello all,

From what I understand/remember, a sotapanna has known & seen dependent origination. When it comes to most factors, I see no problem how they can be seen moment-to-moment. Also literal birth->aging&death is as clear as all triangles have 3 angles.

There is one link that seems problematic. It is bhava->jati. How can it be seen other than through psychic powers which even some Arahants don't seem to have?

Thanks,
You don’t have to literally see them, like pictures on a screen flashing in front of you. You have to really understand them (panna). The understanding is seeing.
That sounds more like believing.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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