How to stop caring about winning and losing?

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Gami47
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How to stop caring about winning and losing?

Post by Gami47 »

:namaste:
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Johann
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Re: How to stop caring about winning and losing?

Post by Johann »

By having seen the way out of the circle of win and lose, good householder, the suffering there in this world clear, one does no more care about the matters of the world, happiness there, fame, gai , and starts to worry about win or losing the signs of the path for escape. Worries about right and firm refuge toward the Gems and his duties, related to it. Won it, the path, he seeks now for the only win-win solution, the path way out, the training. Once arrived at the secure, even worry about gaining the highest release does no more arise, at peace, unbound.
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rekoW
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Re: How to stop caring about winning and losing?

Post by rekoW »

Johann wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:22 am way out of the circle of win and lose...
Win by lose identity Ātma
2600htz
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Re: How to stop caring about winning and losing?

Post by 2600htz »

Hi:

I would say always train to win.And win whenever you can, its more fun than losing. Push your limits (while having right view, right effort, etc). Eventually the passion for that theme will go away, and without passion for that it will not matter to you the outcome.

Regards.
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Johann
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Re: How to stop caring about winning and losing?

Post by Johann »

rekoW wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:16 am
Johann wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:22 am way out of the circle of win and lose...
Win by lose identity Ātma
That's the gain of the consumer, consumer, that's the gain leading to lose and head downwardly, does not train for higher and release, dwells in householder equanimity with all it's failures.
Even a stupid baby boy has no sense of self, and those who teach such ways, the Sublime Buddha regarded as on the same level as a stupid baby boy.

Still identifing in forms, smells, ..., not seeing the gross dangers, maintaining a household, one, as soon as deprived from what one thought not to nourish on it, worries rightly about his lose, not gained higher identification, ways of nourishment, not tained in accordiance with the Dhamma for a beyond.

It's because of seeing that the eye, forms, intent on contact, feeling on contact, what ever arises around it, isn't a refuge, not under one's control, not to be regarduable as own... the ear... the nose... the intelect intent on contact, feeling on contact, what ever arises around it, isn't a refuge, not under one's control, not to be regarduable as own, that one stops to worry, to consume, to identify with it, and wins on it more and more refined ways, is capable to let go of most refined nourishment, gains release.

The first step toward win-win, after disgusted with the world, starts with right resolve, right speech, right deeeds and get's completed by right livelihood. Having arrived at Adhsila, the refined journey for lasting gain comes within the gained cause of the path of no more lose.

Dukkha is the cause of surrender, Saddha (Sila), of which is the beginning of the path, the end of worry of what will be lost anyway, what ever effort, going after the secure.
SarathW
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Re: How to stop caring about winning and losing?

Post by SarathW »

You can't have winners without losers.
So you will be one of them sooner or later.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SteRo
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Re: How to stop caring about winning and losing?

Post by SteRo »

Gami47 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 6:10 pm:namaste:
Depends on what it is that is won or lost. E.g. the self can win in terms of habits it wants to get rid of or it can lose and in the context of habits there are certainly some one should care about winning or losing.
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pegembara
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Re: How to stop caring about winning and losing?

Post by pegembara »

You lie down on a sunny beach and experience the warm sun and gentle breeze on your skin(fire/wind element), the waves lapping at your feet(water), and the sensation of the warm sand(earth) on your back. Not a worry in the world.

Compare this to you sitting at your desk worrying about winning or losing a promotion to a rival.

Which of the 2 scenarios is more important and hence more real to you?
Why is one more important than the other?
Find out why and you have the answer.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Johann
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Re: How to stop caring about winning and losing?

Post by Johann »

pegembara wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:47 am You lie down on a sunny beach and experience the warm sun and gentle breeze on your skin(fire/wind element), the waves lapping at your feet(water), and the sensation of the warm sand(earth) on your back. Not a worry in the world.

Compare this to you sitting at your desk worrying about winning or losing a promotion to a rival.

Which of the 2 scenarios is more important and hence more real to you?
Why is one more important than the other?
Find out why and you have the answer.
So one consuming off past merits has no reason to worry, doesn't worry that certain pleasure will soon disappear, and one working on them is a loser? Or how should the sample be understood, good householder?
Last edited by Johann on Sat Aug 20, 2022 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: How to stop caring about winning and losing?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Gami47 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 6:10 pm~
It really depends on context.

We are trying win, gain the supreme victory in battle over the defilements. Loss is unthinkable in this.

Likewise, there is a story in the Pali canon about how a competitive attitude led a lay follower and his community to Arahantship because he always wanted to be ahead and they kept catching up (more precepts, jhanas, finally liberation).

So in my opinion the desire to win is very important in the dhamma and in life. The issue rather is choosing ones battles rightly, and having equanimity when not getting desired outcomes which nonetheless should be there as there are always plans and intentions.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
pegembara
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Re: How to stop caring about winning and losing?

Post by pegembara »

Johann wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 6:28 am
pegembara wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:47 am You lie down on a sunny beach and experience the warm sun and gentle breeze on your skin(fire/wind element), the waves lapping at your feet(water), and the sensation of the warm sand(earth) on your back. Not a worry in the world.

Compare this to you sitting at your desk worrying about winning or losing a promotion to a rival.

Which of the 2 scenarios is more important and hence more real to you?
Why is one more important than the other?
Find out why and you have the answer.
So one consuming off past merits has no reason to worry, doesn't worry that certain pleasure will soon disappear, and one working on them is a loser? Or how should the sample be understood, good householder?
If one is not truly free, the first scenario is only temporary. The world’s responsibilities kicks in and you are back to believing that the winner takes it all and the loser has to fall. That happiness means more money, better reputation, more power. The beach scene is a good break from real life.

The winner takes it all or don’t worry, be happy.

But what if reality is the opposite? Things are okay and trying to own more and more is actually going against the flow of life.

So is the second scenario better? Or is Jeff Bezos the winner rather some beach “bum” who simply lazes around?



"Endowed with five qualities, a monk pursuing mindfulness of breathing will in no long time penetrate the Unprovoked [release]. Which five?

"He is a person who imposes only a little [on others]: one of few duties & projects, easy to support, easily contented with the requisites of life.

"He is a person who eats only a little food, committed to not indulging his stomach.

"He is a person of only a little sloth, committed to wakefulness.

"He gets to hear at will, easily & without difficulty, talk that is truly sobering & conducive to the opening of awareness: talk on modesty, contentment, seclusion, non-entanglement, arousing persistence, virtue, concentration, discernment, release, and the knowledge & vision of release.

"He reflects on the mind as it is released.

"Endowed with these five qualities, a monk pursuing mindfulness of breathing will in no long time penetrate the Unprovoked."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

For ages now you've been
Beguiled, entranced, and fooled by appearances.
Are you aware of that? Are you?
Right this very instant, when you're
Under the spell of mistaken perception
You've got to watch out.
Don't let yourself get carried away by this fake
and empty life.

Your mind is spinning around
About carrying out a lot of useless projects:
It's a waste! Give it up!
Thinking about the hundred plans you want to accomplish,
With never enough time to finish them,
Just weighs down your mind.

http://keithdowman.net/guestpage/patrul ... yself.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Johann
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Re: How to stop caring about winning and losing?

Post by Johann »

pegembara wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 4:24 pm
Johann wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 6:28 am
pegembara wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:47 am You lie down on a sunny beach and experience the warm sun and gentle breeze on your skin(fire/wind element), the waves lapping at your feet(water), and the sensation of the warm sand(earth) on your back. Not a worry in the world.

Compare this to you sitting at your desk worrying about winning or losing a promotion to a rival.

Which of the 2 scenarios is more important and hence more real to you?
Why is one more important than the other?
Find out why and you have the answer.
So one consuming off past merits has no reason to worry, doesn't worry that certain pleasure will soon disappear, and one working on them is a loser? Or how should the sample be understood, good householder?
If one is not truly free, the first scenario is only temporary. The world’s responsibilities kicks in and you are back to believing that the winner takes it all and the loser has to fall. That happiness means more money, better reputation, more power. The beach scene is a good break from real life.

The winner takes it all or don’t worry, be happy.

But what if reality is the opposite? Things are okay and trying to own more and more is actually going against the flow of life.

So is the second scenario better? Or is Jeff Bezos the winner rather some beach “bum” who simply lazes around?



"Endowed with five qualities, a monk pursuing mindfulness of breathing will in no long time penetrate the Unprovoked [release]. Which five?

"He is a person who imposes only a little [on others]: one of few duties & projects, easy to support, easily contented with the requisites of life.

"He is a person who eats only a little food, committed to not indulging his stomach.

"He is a person of only a little sloth, committed to wakefulness.

"He gets to hear at will, easily & without difficulty, talk that is truly sobering & conducive to the opening of awareness: talk on modesty, contentment, seclusion, non-entanglement, arousing persistence, virtue, concentration, discernment, release, and the knowledge & vision of release.

"He reflects on the mind as it is released.

"Endowed with these five qualities, a monk pursuing mindfulness of breathing will in no long time penetrate the Unprovoked."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

For ages now you've been
Beguiled, entranced, and fooled by appearances.
Are you aware of that? Are you?
Right this very instant, when you're
Under the spell of mistaken perception
You've got to watch out.
Don't let yourself get carried away by this fake
and empty life.

Your mind is spinning around
About carrying out a lot of useless projects:
It's a waste! Give it up!
Thinking about the hundred plans you want to accomplish,
With never enough time to finish them,
Just weighs down your mind.

http://keithdowman.net/guestpage/patrul ... yself.html
Actually it's all because of desiring for beach, peace through sensuality, good householder. Even cheating oneself comes firm along.

So a wise person calles doing merits, small to large, a break, a benefical holiday, doing work for higher than waste off time in consume hardships away.

One, enjoying sensuality, not eager doing ones duties, and they are a lot, is one just increasing his debts, heads downwardly, here, and hereafter, good householder. It's therefore not wise to let defilements argue with Sublime when actually after low.
Last edited by Johann on Sat Aug 20, 2022 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Johann
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Re: How to stop caring about winning and losing?

Post by Johann »

This being so, Upasaka, Upasika, in good communities, having found faith in the Dhamma, spend all their free time, holidays, when ever possible, by deeds of merits, of the ten. Not worry about lose and gains, in and for the world, much anymore. Sure for most utopian, even children find joy in giving and services much more benefical then to go after gain, joy in sensual pleasure, honor, esteem, or worry about it. For one having found base within the Buddha-parisa, serving has become duty, and worries are only in regard of the Gems and the way on them.
SteRo
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Re: How to stop caring about winning and losing?

Post by SteRo »

SteRo wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:33 am
Gami47 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 6:10 pm:namaste:
Depends on what it is that is won or lost. E.g. the self can win in terms of habits it wants to get rid of or it can lose and in the context of habits there are certainly some one should care about winning or losing.
So when there are no habits left that one wanted to get rid of initially then one can stop "caring about winning and losing". But of course that only applies if one wanted to get rid of habits in the first place which rarely seems to be the case and there are many religions nowadays which teach that you are perfect whatever you do or how you behave.
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pegembara
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Re: How to stop caring about winning and losing?

Post by pegembara »

Johann wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 10:33 pm This being so, Upasaka, Upasika, in good communities, having found faith in the Dhamma, spend all their free time, holidays, when ever possible, by deeds of merits, of the ten. Not worry about lose and gains, in and for the world, much anymore. Sure for most utopian, even children find joy in giving and services much more benefical then to go after gain, joy in sensual pleasure, honor, esteem, or worry about it. For one having found base within the Buddha-parisa, serving has become duty, and worries are only in regard of the Gems and the way on them.
As mentioned, the enjoyment is temporary. For one caught in the net, there’s no escape. The beach bum is not much better off than say Jeff Bezos.

Consider this. When the elements in the form of fire, wind, water and earth (sun, breeze, waves, sand) are experienced there’s no sense of identity at the time. You stopped having a body, a job, a family or friends. There’s peace and happiness when you realize that many of the things you thought you need are merely what you thought you needed! Winning becomes less and less important since you already have the keys to happiness. A big house, a pool, a luxury car, holiday in Paris, reputation - Do you really need all that?

The critical piece of the puzzle is the realization that the false sense of identity is the cause of all this need to be a winner and not a loser.

Nobody wants to be a loser but what if you are in reality a ‘nobody’
“I want to be free” by Queen. Without the I, you are already free!

Merits? For whom?

As Ajahn Chah would say “Step over here away from the sun where it’s cool”.

Bhara Sutta

"And which is the carrier of the burden? 'The person,' it should be said. This venerable one with such a name, such a clan-name. This is called the carrier of the burden.

"And which is the taking up of the burden? The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming. This is called the taking up of the burden.

"And which is the casting off of the burden? The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving. This is called the casting off of the burden."
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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