Why the sutta Jhana seem so different from what some teach?

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pegembara
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Re: Why the sutta Jhana seem so different from what some teach?

Post by pegembara »

Though not directly answering the OP, it would seem that while doing anapanasati, thoughts go first, then body and eventually perception and feelings disappear.
"In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."

Notes
Verbal fabrication grows still on attaining the second jhana; bodily fabrication grows still on attaining the fourth jhana; mental fabrication grows still on attaining the cessation of perception & feeling.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why the sutta Jhana seem so different from what some teach?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 3:48 pm
And the context is 4 satipatthanas with 1st one being "kaya satipatthana" and the instruction to feel the breath is in the first tetrad (proper order).

If kaya meant body of breath then the instruction would seem redundant. In all 16 steps of anapanasati one is aware of breathing. In first 2 steps one would already be aware of entire body of breath."
In the sutta itself it states that the breath is a body amongst the bodies, and this is how it fulfils the 1st Satipaṭṭhāna

Kāyesu kāyaññatarāhaṁ, bhikkhave, evaṁ vadāmi yadidaṁ—assāsapassāsā. Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, kāye kāyānupassī tasmiṁ samaye bhikkhu viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṁ.
I say that this is a certain body among the bodies, namely, in-breathing and out-breathing. That is why on that occasion a bhikkhu abides contemplating the body as a body, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world.


Whilst one is aware of "long" or "short" breath at the beginning, the stage of being mindful of the whole breath is an intensification of that. You become aware of the whole breath without any interruption. This then intensifies to the calming of the breath body. When the breath body is calm, the other bodies are calm too such as the literal body and the nāmakāya. When nāmarūpa is still, calm, tranquilised then citta is also still, calm and tranquilised. This is where Jhāna occurs.
Why didn't the compilers of the Canon use some other, non-ambiguous word for "body of breath"?
Wouldn't it be prudent to make sure to tell that you mean something else by using that word? Not everyone is native Pali speaker who can "sense" the nuances of contexts. It would have been more "fool-proof" to use some other word that wouldn't be misinterpreted...Sure, but it would be better if for the sake of future generations of people/monks who didn't speak Pali one would use something simpler and non-ambiguous word that couldn't be easily misinterpreted.
Because it made sense to them, and they had no knowledge of English or other modern languages today. We can see though the diverse ways in which "body" is used in the texts. For example
One time, sir, I approached Pakudha Kaccāyana and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, I sat down to one side, and asked him the same question. He said: ‘Great king, these seven substances are not made, not derived, not created, without a creator, barren, steady as a mountain peak, standing firm like a pillar. They don’t move or deteriorate or obstruct each other. They’re unable to cause pleasure, pain, or neutral feeling to each other. What seven?

The substances of earth, water, fire, air; pleasure, pain, and the soul is the seventh.
Pathavikāyo, āpokāyo, tejokāyo, vāyokāyo, sukhe, dukkhe, jīve sattame—
https://suttacentral.net/dn2/en/sujato? ... ript=latin
I believe that if something was really important, it would have been mentioned often and clearly. Of course if one searches deep enough in some minor books from sutta pitaka, one could find something vague and interpret to suit one's teaching. But what weight do we put on that vs something that is frequently and clearly mentioned?
I think it more likely that when it comes to meditation the suttas give a basic framework, but meditation masters fill in the rest for their students. I think it certainly is the case that people can give rise to the Jhāna factors but, at first, rather weakly. I would say this is access concentration. Someone like Frank would say it's weak Jhāna. Really it's just playing with semantics. Whatever you want to call it, for beginners there will likely have times when the Jhāna factors are there but weak and wobbly. The label doesn't really matter.
It is all based upon the Teachings of the Buddha. The highest and best, IMHO, authority.
Indeed. That however has no bearing on the fact that suttas are truncated teachings. For example, how does one actually practice the Kasiṇa according to the suttas or the eight bases of mastery? It's not really explained.
*I bolded and underlined an important word in your quote. One out of many other suttas that do not.

Can you, please, give a link?

Thanks.
Sure. Here it is
After the Bhagavān had finished imparting this subtle teaching to Rāhula, then Rāhula promptly arose from his seat and bowed at the feet of the Buddha. Circumambulating him three times, he then departed. Arriving in the Andha Garden, he stopped at the foot of a tree. He corrected his body, corrected his intention, and sat cross-legged. Without any other thoughts, he fastened his mind on the tip of his nose. [1] When there was a long breath out, he was also aware of the long breath. [2] When there was a long breath in, he was also aware of the long breath. [3] When there was a short breath out, he was also aware of the short breath. [4] When there was a short breath in, he was also aware of the short breath. [5] When there was a cold breath out, he was also aware of the cold breath. [6] When there was a cold breath in, he was also aware of the cold breath. [7] When there was a warm breath out, he was also aware of the warm breath. [8] When there was a warm breath in, he was also aware of the warm breath. [9] He completely contemplated the in-breaths and out-breaths of the body, and was aware of them all. [10] When there was breathing, he was aware of its presence. [11] When there was no breathing, he was aware of its absence. [12] If there was an out-breath conditioned by the mind, he was aware that it came from the mind. [13] If there was an in-breath conditioned by the mind, he was aware that it came from the mind.

At this time, Rāhula cultivated thusly, and a mind of desires was set free, not returning to the multitude of evils. [1] Contemplating with this mindfulness, he maintained the joy and bliss of roaming in the First Dhyāna, in which there is vitarka and vicāra. [2] When vitarka and vicāra came to a rest, he experienced inner bliss and single-pointedness of mind. Without initial and sustained application of the mind, with only bliss born from samādhi, he roamed in the Second Dhyāna. [3] Observing awareness, he experienced the physical pleasure that the Noble Ones constantly experience with equanimity, the complete satisfaction and mindfulness of roaming in the Third Dhyāna. [4] When both pain and pleasure were eliminated, there were no more worries and vexations. Without pain and pleasure, only completely pure and perfect mindfulness, he roamed in the Fourth Dhyāna.
https://suttacentral.net/ea17.1/en/pier ... ight=false

This is from the Ekottara Āgama. The EĀ is likely a Mahāsāṃghika text. Since the Mahāsāṃghika were the first to split, it's understandable that their texts should look somewhat different from Sthavira texts like we find in Theravāda and Sarvāstivāda. That said, in Sarvāstivāda there are sutras which say one is to be aware of "all the breaths" rather than "whole body" which is what we find in Theravāda, although there are also Sarvāstivāda texts which say "whole body" too.

One other thing about kāya. It can also be used as an idiom. For example in the 3rd Jhāna we find

Puna caparaṁ, mahārāja, bhikkhu pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato sampajāno, sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṁvedeti, yaṁ taṁ ariyā ācikkhanti: ‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti, tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.

Usually translated as

“Further, great king, with the fading away of rapture, the bhikkhu dwells in equanimity, mindful and clearly comprehending, and experiences happiness with the body. Thus he enters and dwells in the third jhāna, of which the noble ones declare: ‘He dwells happily with equanimity and mindfulness.’ He drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses his body with this happiness free from rapture, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this happiness.

The interesting thing though is that in Pāli "kāyena" doesn't have to be literal. For example

"Acchariyā hete, āvuso, puggalā dullabhā lokasmiṁ, ye amataṁ dhātuṁ kāyena phusitvā viharanti."

If we were to translate it literally we would get

Because it’s incredibly rare to find individuals in the world who dwell having touched the deathless element through the body.

Which would mean they literally touch nibbāna with their body. The alternative is to take "kāyena" here as figurative. Rather than literally touching the deathless element, we can read it as

Because it’s incredibly rare to find individuals in the world who have direct meditative experience of the deathless element.

Which is Sujato's translation. Or, similar to this

Because it’s incredibly rare to find individuals in the world who have direct personal experience of the deathless element.

With that in mind then we can read the 3rd Jhāna pericope as either

“Further, great king, with the fading away of rapture, the bhikkhu dwells in equanimity, mindful and clearly comprehending, and experiences happiness with the body. Thus he enters and dwells in the third jhāna, of which the noble ones declare: ‘He dwells happily with equanimity and mindfulness.’

or

“Further, great king, with the fading away of rapture, the bhikkhu dwells in equanimity, mindful and clearly comprehending, and personally experiences happiness. Thus he enters and dwells in the third jhāna, of which the noble ones declare: ‘He dwells happily with equanimity and mindfulness.’

If we can read kāya as a figurative idiom in the 3rd Jhāna, why not the others too? Why not even with the Jhāna similes?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Why the sutta Jhana seem so different from what some teach?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex123 wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:05 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 5:51 am Ita given but u didnt see it properly.

Secluded from sensual desire/pleasure (no active process of information of 5 sence and mind wont think thoughts of anything related to 5 sence)

Secluded from ill will

So u have it
No. That says that one doesn't have sensual desires. If sensual desire was equivalent to 5 sense consciousness then Anagamis and Arhats who don't have sensual desire would be without 5 sense consciousness.
The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality,
not the beautiful sensual pleasures

found in the world.
The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality.

The beauties remain as they are in the world,
while the wise, in this regard,
subdue their desire.

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an ... .than.html
Secluded (vivicca) absolutely (eva) sensual pleasures (kāmehi) secluded (vivicca) unwholesome states (akusalehi dhammehi)

Absolutely secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states.


The sensual pleasures (kāmehi) are the external pleasurable sights, sounds, touches etc of the kāmaguṇā whilst the unwholesome states are the hindrances, which includes sensual desire for those things. One is not just secluded from the kāmaguṇā. One is completely secluded (eva) from them.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Sam Vara
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Re: Why the sutta Jhana seem so different from what some teach?

Post by Sam Vara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:48 pm One is not just secluded from the kāmaguṇā. One is completely secluded (eva) from them.
Couldn't eva mean "just" here?
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Re: Why the sutta Jhana seem so different from what some teach?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 8:30 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:48 pm One is not just secluded from the kāmaguṇā. One is completely secluded (eva) from them.
Couldn't eva mean "just" here?
I don’t think “just/only secluded from the kamehi” works.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Why the sutta Jhana seem so different from what some teach?

Post by Sam Vara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:06 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 8:30 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:48 pm One is not just secluded from the kāmaguṇā. One is completely secluded (eva) from them.
Couldn't eva mean "just" here?
I don’t think “just/only secluded from the kamehi” works.
"secluded just from the sensual pleasures..." seems OK, in that there are other things the meditator isn't secluded from.
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Re: Why the sutta Jhana seem so different from what some teach?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Alex123 wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:10 pm
Thanks, I will read it!


:anjali:
It's a really great book, I also recommend it. It's not heavy or dull, because it's interviews.
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Re: Why the sutta Jhana seem so different from what some teach?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:02 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:06 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 8:30 pm

Couldn't eva mean "just" here?
I don’t think “just/only secluded from the kamehi” works.
"secluded just from the sensual pleasures..." seems OK, in that there are other things the meditator isn't secluded from.
Jhana though isn’t just secluded from sensual pleasures.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Why the sutta Jhana seem so different from what some teach?

Post by Sam Vara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:14 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:02 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:06 pm

I don’t think “just/only secluded from the kamehi” works.
"secluded just from the sensual pleasures..." seems OK, in that there are other things the meditator isn't secluded from.
Jhana though isn’t just secluded from sensual pleasures.
No, but it could be that regarding sensual pleasures, that is all that's needed. Other things might be needed as well, of course, that have nothing to do with sensual pleasures.
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Re: Why the sutta Jhana seem so different from what some teach?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:50 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:14 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:02 pm

"secluded just from the sensual pleasures..." seems OK, in that there are other things the meditator isn't secluded from.
Jhana though isn’t just secluded from sensual pleasures.
No, but it could be that regarding sensual pleasures, that is all that's needed. Other things might be needed as well, of course, that have nothing to do with sensual pleasures.
A reading of “just secluded from sensual pleasures” reads to me that Jhana is only seclusion from sensual pleasures. There are two seclusions though, not 1. Only the first gets the eva emphasis, so it makes sense to say it’s “absolutely secluded” from sensual pleasures and secluded from unwholesome states.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Why the sutta Jhana seem so different from what some teach?

Post by Sam Vara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:54 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:50 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:14 pm

Jhana though isn’t just secluded from sensual pleasures.
No, but it could be that regarding sensual pleasures, that is all that's needed. Other things might be needed as well, of course, that have nothing to do with sensual pleasures.
I reading of “just secluded from sensual pleasures” reads to me that Jhana is only seclusion from sensual pleasures. There are two seclusions though, not 1. Only the first gets the eva emphasis, so it makes sense to say it’s “absolutely secluded” from sensual pleasures and secluded from unwholesome states.
Yes, that's partly why I think it might not be all that clear cut. Would one not also need to be "absolutely secluded" from unwholesome states? I'm not sure what they would be, but if they included, say, anger, would that not be as much if not more of a hindrance than sensual pleasures?

"Just secluded from sensual pleasures" might mean that one is only secluded from them; or it might mean that one is barely - "only just" - secluded. One need do no more than temporarily remove oneself from them, rather than the stronger pajahati or patinisagga, abandoning or renouncing

Eva is an emphatic particle, but I'm not sure if it stretches to "completely", which is definitive in a way that eva is usually not. You might well be right, but I'm interested in exploring more of this.

That will be tomorrow, though, C. Beauty sleep!
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Re: Why the sutta Jhana seem so different from what some teach?

Post by confusedlayman »

secluded means escaped from or not in contact with sensual pleasure

not in contact is different from partial contact or background contact

so 5 sence exp completly off and mind will not think of thoughts related to information that gained or that needs 5 sence doors.

for example mind wont think about food in 1st jhana as food is sence pleasure through sence door so if mind thinks that there will be sence pleasure so it is not possible in first jhana..

anger is not possible as mind is already one pointed attached to bliss (there cant be two conciousness at same time)

When you keep body extremely still , thats the basic posture to enter jhana... still laying or still sitting.. (still standing not possible due to body physiology)

keep body still with eye closed ( prefer laying position) and observe the stillness (dont lose awarenesss as u will end up sleeping)

if ur mind enjoy stillness then mind will be active and wont be lazy to go to sleep.
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Re: Why the sutta Jhana seem so different from what some teach?

Post by Joe.c »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:01 pm Why don't the suttas clearly say so that "5 sense consciousness is fully abandoned in the 1st jhana" ?

Why leave out such piece of information?
Because they haven’t. They have only been purified at 4th jhana see MN 43 and MN 127. And you need wisdom to fully abandoned them. No wisdom that means one still hasn’t understood the jhana and the cons of sensual pleasure (kamaraga).

If you have understood the 5 senses and attain samma samadhi (even 1st jhana), you will let go your family and other householder life stuffs. 😀

So attaining & maintaining jhana can be verified by you (personally) and others that understood jhana. Not only some mystical mind exercise/sitting meditation only. Or suddenly someone just say he has jhana, but upon verification there is none. 😀😅
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Re: Why the sutta Jhana seem so different from what some teach?

Post by confusedlayman »

Joe.c wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 8:13 am
Alex123 wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:01 pm Why don't the suttas clearly say so that "5 sense consciousness is fully abandoned in the 1st jhana" ?

Why leave out such piece of information?
Because they haven’t. They have only been purified at 4th jhana see MN 43 and MN 127. And you need wisdom to fully abandoned them. No wisdom that means one still hasn’t understood the jhana and the cons of sensual pleasure (kamaraga).

If you have understood the 5 senses and attain samma samadhi (even 1st jhana), you will let go your family and other householder life stuffs. 😀

So attaining & maintaining jhana can be verified by you (personally) and others that understood jhana. Not only some mystical mind exercise/sitting meditation only. Or suddenly someone just say he has jhana, but upon verification there is none. 😀😅
Dont misrepresent the blessed one as its mot good to misrepresent blessed one.

Jhana is one way to escape the world (of 5 sence). That is why they brahmas are in non sensual plane
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Re: Why the sutta Jhana seem so different from what some teach?

Post by Alex123 »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:48 am
Dont misrepresent the blessed one as its mot good to misrepresent blessed one.

Jhana is one way to escape the world (of 5 sence). That is why they brahmas are in non sensual plane
Sensual pleasures & unwholesome states are not (in my understanding) 5 sense consciousness. If it were, then Arahats who don't have sensual pleasures & unwholesome states of mind would not have 5 sense consciousness.

It seems that to read-in absence of 5 sense consciousness is reinterpreting and adding what isn't clearly there.

As I've said, why don't the instructions directly and clearly say so about 5 senses faculties?
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