Can you work off anantarika karma?

[Sha Bac]

Right, I hear what you're saying. From a psychological standpoint I can't really fathom it. Even if there was volition, I didn't think efforts were being made to carry out the deed. Mentally I feel innocent but still can't meditate and I lost my attainments.

That’s a separate issue. There is always a chance that the mind will turn against what is preferred, and in your case, that could be a for a number of different reasons. The only constant that you’ve expressed is the grief and anxiety that has been present since her death, but that does not imply all these things are related.

What's a separate issue...that I don't feel guilty or that I can't meditate and lost my attainments?

[SDC]

Right, I hear what you're saying. From a psychological standpoint I can't really fathom it. Even if there was volition, I didn't think efforts were being made to carry out the deed. Mentally I feel innocent but still can't meditate and I lost my attainments.

That’s a separate issue. There is always a chance that the mind will turn against what is preferred, and in your case, that could be a for a number of different reasons. The only constant that you’ve expressed is the grief and anxiety that has been present since her death, but that does not imply all these things are related.

What's a separate issue...that I don't feel guilty or that I can't meditate and lost my attainments?

What I meant was that the loss of your attainments and ability to meditate is not any sort of proof of your responsibility for her death.

[Sha Bac]

That’s a separate issue. There is always a chance that the mind will turn against what is preferred, and in your case, that could be a for a number of different reasons. The only constant that you’ve expressed is the grief and anxiety that has been present since her death, but that does not imply all these things are related.

What's a separate issue...that I don't feel guilty or that I can't meditate and lost my attainments?

What I meant was that the loss of your attainments and ability to meditate is not any sort of proof of your responsibility for her death.

Really? Howso?

[Sha Bac]

If a person takes refuge and then kills, is the karma worse because they had taken refuge and broke vows?

[dharmacorps]

First off, there are no vows in going for refuge.

You're driving yourself nuts by speculating about kamma. How about just understanding killing is wrong? Why complicate this so much and ask so many marginally different variations of the same question?

[SDC]

What's a separate issue...that I don't feel guilty or that I can't meditate and lost my attainments?

What I meant was that the loss of your attainments and ability to meditate is not any sort of proof of your responsibility for her death.

Really? Howso?

Just curious, why you think it is proof?

[dharmacorps]

Adam, Things just happen. People die. There is suffering. Meditation has its ebbs and flows. Ones practices fall apart. They get better. It comes and goes. There's no need to have psychic powers, or find out the magical mathematical formula for karma to have these things happen. Its life. Its very difficult to deal with sometimes, and we risk getting to a place of driving ourselves insane by trying to make sense of it all via scrupulosity. The Buddha's message is another, more compassionate and grounded path.

[Sha Bac]

What I meant was that the loss of your attainments and ability to meditate is not any sort of proof of your responsibility for her death.

Really? Howso?

Just curious, why you think it is proof?

Well it was the timing. It's not as though I kept my attainments for months and months after my mom died. The karma seemed to ripen immediately. And anantarika karma would seem to be the only karma with the strength to do THAT. Milarepa, the Tibetan yogi, killed a bunch of people with black magic. Angullimala killed 999 people. They both reached enlightenment. But I can't even meditate and I lost my attainments immediately...

[SDC]

Really? Howso?

Just curious, why you think it is proof?

Well it was the timing. It's not as though I kept my attainments for months and months after my mom died. The karma seemed to ripen immediately. And anantarika karma would seem to be the only karma with the strength to do THAT. Milarepa, the Tibetan yogi, killed a bunch of people with black magic. Angullimala killed 999 people. They both reached enlightenment. But I can't even meditate and I lost my attainments immediately...

What do you mean by immediately? How long after you were informed of her death?

[Sha Bac]

Just curious, why you think it is proof?

Well it was the timing. It's not as though I kept my attainments for months and months after my mom died. The karma seemed to ripen immediately. And anantarika karma would seem to be the only karma with the strength to do THAT. Milarepa, the Tibetan yogi, killed a bunch of people with black magic. Angullimala killed 999 people. They both reached enlightenment. But I can't even meditate and I lost my attainments immediately...

What do you mean by immediately? How long after you were informed of her death?

The day she died, it was in the back of my mind that I may have caused it, but nothing happened. Probably like a couple days later is when it all started happening.

[SDC]

Well it was the timing. It's not as though I kept my attainments for months and months after my mom died. The karma seemed to ripen immediately. And anantarika karma would seem to be the only karma with the strength to do THAT. Milarepa, the Tibetan yogi, killed a bunch of people with black magic. Angullimala killed 999 people. They both reached enlightenment. But I can't even meditate and I lost my attainments immediately...

What do you mean by immediately? How long after you were informed of her death?

The day she died, it was in the back of my mind that I may have caused it, but nothing happened. Probably like a couple days later is when it all started happening.

You don’t think it was the shock of her death combined with your belief of the possibility of causing it is the reason you’re so distraught? What I mean is you 1) lost your mother and 2) believe it was your fault. That’s traumatic. You have no proof it was your fault, but since you think it “might” be, that causing deep trauma. That is not a coincidence. These things are directly related because you have made the decision to believe you had these powers. You cannot prove - even to yourself - that you ever had any powers to begin with, so it is very likely you are traumatized and unable to keep living your previous lifestyle, and now you are panicking looking for a reason. But it seems very likely that you are pushing your theory way too far.

Like I said a few months ago, if you cannot admit to yourself that it is very possible you didn’t have these powers, than your loss of the ability to meditate is simply because you feel guilt for something you could not have done. If you let that sink in it might be difficult. You’ll have to come to terms with the fact that your attainments weren’t there, but at least you can realize you don’t own the burden of her death and never could have to begin with.

Your burden is not these powers. Your burden is the pressure to keep believing every detail of this situation. You’ve been willing to admit that it possible that this was not your fault. Now you need to take it a step further and accept the possibility that it could never have been to begin with.

[SarathW]

If a person takes refuge and then kills, is the karma worse because they had taken refuge and broke vows?

You take refuge in Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha.
You resolve yourself not to break the precepts.
According to Buddhism breaking precepts without knowledge is worse than breaking them knowing it.

[Sha Bac]

First off, there are no vows in going for refuge.

You're driving yourself nuts by speculating about kamma. How about just understanding killing is wrong? Why complicate this so much and ask so many marginally different variations of the same question?

Sorry if you think I'm a nuisance. You don't have to answer my questions.

[SarathW]

First off, there are no vows in going for refuge.

You're driving yourself nuts by speculating about kamma. How about just understanding killing is wrong? Why complicate this so much and ask so many marginally different variations of the same question?

Sorry if you think I'm a nuisance. You don't have to answer my questions.

Agree.
There is a reporting function to alert moderators.

[Johann]

First off, there are no vows in going for refuge.

You're driving yourself nuts by speculating about kamma. How about just understanding killing is wrong? Why complicate this so much and ask so many marginally different variations of the same question?

Sorry if you think I'm a nuisance. You don't have to answer my questions.

Agree.
There is a reporting function to alert moderators.

Although good householder "knows" the precepts, he might not be aware that suggesting killing, or hint that others lose, e.g. call the police, is very bad kamma, and by using voice, words, breaks already the precepts. good householder. (it's usual here to kill also right as well: very heavy kamma and cutting off from refuge)

As for the OP, naturally it's impossible without first losing refuge, that one does even things against the good conducts.

So renewing the refuge, asking for pardon, confessing wrong doing, is very needed, otherwise one relays just on wrong view and his refuge is nothing but own ideas and perceptions, yet not the Gems.

Generally less have, even if thinking so, ever taken refuge or ways to renew it, nor have they ever proper taken the precepts, as both requires to meet the Gems very personal, recognize them.