Can you work off anantarika karma?

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Re: Voluntary manslaughter

Post by DNS »

Adam1234 wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 4:22 pm So there may be no karmic differentiation between first degree and second degree murder?
Yes, I think that is probably correct because even though legally there is a distinction; in terms of the Dhamma, there was intent for both. Even though the fit of rage, spur of the moment murder has lesser legal consequences, Dhammically speaking, there was still intent.

Whereas, legally speaking third degree (involuntary manslaughter) has legal repercussions, there may be none according to Dhamma (no intent).
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Re: Voluntary manslaughter

Post by SarathW »

Adam1234 wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 4:22 pm
DNS wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 4:18 pm
Adam1234 wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 3:39 pm What is the karmic difference between an impulsive murder and a pre meditated one? Like if a person kills another in an impulsive act of rage. I guess that would be called second degree murder?
Legally speaking, yes, an impulsive act would be second degree murder. First degree murder would be a premeditated one, where the person plans it for some time, makes preparations and carries out the dirty deed.

And then there is third degree murder, involuntary manslaughter. I think car accidents fall under that where you didn't intend or mean to kill the person, but did some bad driving that ended up killing someone.

I think kamma is similar in that it also focuses on the intent where there is little to no repercussions if there was no intent.
So there may be no karmic differentiation between first degree and second degree murder?
I spent hours researching this on the internet without an answer I can support with Sutta.
In my opinion, first-degree murder comes under prompted (Sasankarika) or stimulated by planning or by others
In my opinion, the second-degree murder comes under unprompted (Asankarika)

However, it appears that first-degree murder is Kammikally's higher weight than second-degree murder.
In both cases, the killing was done.
I am not sure of the answer.

Can someone find the answer in Abhidhamma?

https://www.saraniya.com/books/meditati ... dhamma.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Sha Bac
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Re: Voluntary manslaughter

Post by Sha Bac »

SarathW wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 5:20 am
Adam1234 wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 4:22 pm
DNS wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 4:18 pm

Legally speaking, yes, an impulsive act would be second degree murder. First degree murder would be a premeditated one, where the person plans it for some time, makes preparations and carries out the dirty deed.

And then there is third degree murder, involuntary manslaughter. I think car accidents fall under that where you didn't intend or mean to kill the person, but did some bad driving that ended up killing someone.

I think kamma is similar in that it also focuses on the intent where there is little to no repercussions if there was no intent.
So there may be no karmic differentiation between first degree and second degree murder?
I spent hours researching this on the internet without an answer I can support with Sutta.
In my opinion, first-degree murder comes under prompted (Sasankarika) or stimulated by planning or by others
In my opinion, the second-degree murder comes under unprompted (Asankarika)

However, it appears that first-degree murder is Kammikally's higher weight than second-degree murder.
In both cases, the killing was done.
I am not sure of the answer.

Can someone find the answer in Abhidhamma?

https://www.saraniya.com/books/meditati ... dhamma.pdf
Why is first degree murder higher weight? How?
SarathW
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Re: Voluntary manslaughter

Post by SarathW »

Adam1234 wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 10:24 am
SarathW wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 5:20 am
Adam1234 wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 4:22 pm

So there may be no karmic differentiation between first degree and second degree murder?
I spent hours researching this on the internet without an answer I can support with Sutta.
In my opinion, first-degree murder comes under prompted (Sasankarika) or stimulated by planning or by others
In my opinion, the second-degree murder comes under unprompted (Asankarika)

However, it appears that first-degree murder is Kammikally's higher weight than second-degree murder.
In both cases, the killing was done.
I am not sure of the answer.

Can someone find the answer in Abhidhamma?

https://www.saraniya.com/books/meditati ... dhamma.pdf
Why is first degree murder higher weight? How?
I did not say that. What I said was that I don't know.
Perhaps David said this.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Sha Bac
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Re: Voluntary manslaughter

Post by Sha Bac »

SarathW wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 10:55 am
Adam1234 wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 10:24 am
SarathW wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 5:20 am
I spent hours researching this on the internet without an answer I can support with Sutta.
In my opinion, first-degree murder comes under prompted (Sasankarika) or stimulated by planning or by others
In my opinion, the second-degree murder comes under unprompted (Asankarika)

However, it appears that first-degree murder is Kammikally's higher weight than second-degree murder.
In both cases, the killing was done.
I am not sure of the answer.

Can someone find the answer in Abhidhamma?

https://www.saraniya.com/books/meditati ... dhamma.pdf
Why is first degree murder higher weight? How?
I did not say that. What I said was that I don't know.
Perhaps David said this.
Oh. What is "kammikallys higher weight"?
SarathW
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Re: Voluntary manslaughter

Post by SarathW »

Adam1234 wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 11:14 am
SarathW wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 10:55 am
Adam1234 wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 10:24 am

Why is first degree murder higher weight? How?
I did not say that. What I said was that I don't know.
Perhaps David said this.
Oh. What is "kammikallys higher weight"?
For instance, five heinous Kamma are Kammicaly higher weight.
If a lower chereter or killing an animal will be less weight than the above.
This is a very complex subject. :D
Hence we must say that it is an individual's accumulation of good or evil kamma and also his dominating character traits, good or evil, which affect the kammic result. They determine the greater or lesser weight of the result and may even spell the difference between whether or not it occurs at all.

But even this does not exhaust the existing possibilities of modifications in the weight of kammic reaction.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... fruit.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Voluntary manslaughter

Post by Sha Bac »

I remembered reading somewhere bikkhu bodhi said there is a difference between 1st and 2nd degree murder but i can't remember where.
Sha Bac
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Re: Voluntary manslaughter

Post by Sha Bac »

"Another factor determinative of moral weight is the motivation of the act. This leads to a distinction between premeditated murder and impulsive killing. The former is murder in cold blood, intended and planned in advance, driven either by strong greed or strong hatred. The latter is killing which is not planned in advance, as when one person kills another in a fit of rage or in self-defense. Generally, premeditated murder is regarded as a graver transgression than impulsive killing, and the motivation of hatred as more blameworthy than the motivation of greed. The presence of cruelty and the obtaining of sadistic pleasure from the act further increase its moral weight.

Other factors determinative of moral gravity are the force of the defilements accompanying the act and the amount of effort involved in its perpetration, but limitations of space prohibit a full discussion of their role."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el282.html
Sha Bac
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Re: Malevolent acts of mind

Post by Sha Bac »

Is there any way of discerning the moral gravity of an impulsive death by siddhi versus premeditated, bodily killing?
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Re: Malevolent acts of mind

Post by SDC »

Adam1234 wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 7:51 pm It doesn't sound like I had mastery of mind.
I agree that it is unlikely you had mastery. I don’t think you were at all responsible for what occurred.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Malevolent acts of mind

Post by Sha Bac »

SDC wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 3:34 pm
Adam1234 wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 7:51 pm It doesn't sound like I had mastery of mind.
I agree that it is unlikely you had mastery. I don’t think you were at all responsible for what occurred.
I know I keep pressing this and forgive me if you've already answered elsewhere, but WHAT HAPPENED? Is there any way to describe what happened, then?
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Re: Malevolent acts of mind

Post by Dhammapardon »

Adam1234 wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 3:40 pm
SDC wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 3:34 pm
Adam1234 wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 7:51 pm It doesn't sound like I had mastery of mind.
I agree that it is unlikely you had mastery. I don’t think you were at all responsible for what occurred.
I know I keep pressing this and forgive me if you've already answered elsewhere, but WHAT HAPPENED? Is there any way to describe what happened, then?
Sounds like you're grieving the loss of your mom in the way that makes the most sense to you.
Find some space to show yourself some kindness and forgiveness for your negative thinking. :console:
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
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Re: Malevolent acts of mind

Post by SDC »

Adam1234 wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 3:40 pm
SDC wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 3:34 pm
Adam1234 wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 7:51 pm It doesn't sound like I had mastery of mind.
I agree that it is unlikely you had mastery. I don’t think you were at all responsible for what occurred.
I know I keep pressing this and forgive me if you've already answered elsewhere, but WHAT HAPPENED? Is there any way to describe what happened, then?
I don’t think anyone here is qualified to know exactly what happened that day. People experience all manner of odd physical situations that are not necessarily life threatening or serious. Anxiety and panic attacks, for example, can mimic the symptoms of a heart attack for those who routinely experience high anxiety. So, it really isn’t possibly to know. Clearly you’ve been through a lot both physically and emotionally. That takes a toll on the mind and body, and that can lead to all manner of symptoms.

Point is, you cannot know for sure, so to conclude that it was psychic abilities that killed your mother is not justified.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Sha Bac
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Re: Malevolent acts of mind

Post by Sha Bac »

SDC wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 5:27 pm
Adam1234 wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 3:40 pm
SDC wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 3:34 pm

I agree that it is unlikely you had mastery. I don’t think you were at all responsible for what occurred.
I know I keep pressing this and forgive me if you've already answered elsewhere, but WHAT HAPPENED? Is there any way to describe what happened, then?
I don’t think anyone here is qualified to know exactly what happened that day. People experience all manner of odd physical situations that are not necessarily life threatening or serious. Anxiety and panic attacks, for example, can mimic the symptoms of a heart attack for those who routinely experience high anxiety. So, it really isn’t possibly to know. Clearly you’ve been through a lot both physically and emotionally. That takes a toll on the mind and body, and that can lead to all manner of symptoms.

Point is, you cannot know for sure, so to conclude that it was psychic abilities that killed your mother is not justified.
Right, I hear what you're saying. From a psychological standpoint I can't really fathom it. Even if there was volition, I didn't think efforts were being made to carry out the deed. Mentally I feel innocent but still can't meditate and I lost my attainments.
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Re: Malevolent acts of mind

Post by SDC »

Adam1234 wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 5:39 pm Right, I hear what you're saying. From a psychological standpoint I can't really fathom it. Even if there was volition, I didn't think efforts were being made to carry out the deed. Mentally I feel innocent but still can't meditate and I lost my attainments.
That’s a separate issue. There is always a chance that the mind will turn against what is preferred, and in your case, that could be a for a number of different reasons. The only constant that you’ve expressed is the grief and anxiety that has been present since her death, but that does not imply all these things are related.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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