What is the karmic consequence of killing your own baby? Where the majority of women in the west are heading?

[Johann]

If I know well, the first precept
"There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from taking life."
includes the unborn babies as well.

In the world today the unborn babies are killed on a mass scale. E.g. in the USA about a million babies are killed every year. Based on the official statistics this number varies from ~800 000 to 1 400 000 per year. This means that at least ~1 000 000 women kill his own baby every year, only in the USA. Or more precisely, they usually pay for a "doctor" to kill their baby.

What is the consequence of these actions? What is the difference in the consequences of the different players in this mass scale killing? So what does the woman earn? What does the doctor earn? What does the nurse who assists doing the killing earn?

There is another interesting aspect of this question. Today a special kind of contraceptive is used widely. This one kills the baby in a very early stage. So the user of these contraceptives does not have to go to the doctor to get her baby killed but it is killed by the contraceptive itself. These are called "chemical abortions" and there is only an estimated number as frequently not even the mother recognize that she just killed her own baby. In the US this kind of abortion is estimated as ~ 14 million a year.

This is a more difficult question, what happens to these women and to these "doctors". Sure the "doctor" is aware of what he/she is doing. But I doubt whether these women are aware about what is going on. If they do not know that with their action they kill the baby, then does it mean that they are free from the karmic consequences?

Sadhu to point out that killing humans has strongly increases, age of humans strong decreased!
Also good to reflect that it is mostly that been killed by near then by far. And also good to reflect the superstition of harming and killing being merely a masculine domain.
It's by factor of 100 to 1000 more certain to get killed by wish of parents (250million/year to 2 Billion (gray) ww) then by war or whats called crime (~400.000/year ww).

Intentional killing, order, assistance, approve, is kamma that leads toward hell, in the realm of animals, ghosts, and if gaining human life: short-life. A fast turning spiral.

Good to know well how much gratitude one owes to onse parents, having not abound this "sucking guest" who wished to become within their world. Giving not-harming, even support, is total free choice by the giver, and not based on any inherit right.

Good to reflect how open by oneself for even burdensome hospitality.

[SDC]

I think the karmic consequences for men who obsesses over the conduct of women is to become a woman next time around, while the women they obsessed over become the men who obsess over them.

Superspicion. Woke attack on Buddha. Man + woman have same froot loop of karma. Youth ink man never push woman to get abortsion?

!kciN, yad ecin a evaH

[asahi]

In most cases i came across , whether they believe abortion is killing or not , intended or otherwise , women whom abort their baby would suffers some physical illness at some later times in this life . Not to mention further karmic results .

[Coëmgenu]

women whom abort their baby would suffers some physical illness at some later times in this life

It is a typically highly-damaging treatment that, if it is to be done at all, should be reserved for only extreme emergencies, extraordinary emergencies. Why? It ends a life. Therefore, it should be reserved for instances where the presence of one life endangers another. Even in such cases, the mother should always have the option of having the child at the price of her own life. No one can make this decision for her.

[TRobinson465]

It is the mindstate that counts because the mindstate will produce karma that is more or less likely to lead you to enlightenment in the future, which is the only important thing. And the mindstate that underlies the killing of animals for fun/ food (which are most cases) are similar to drug-addiction like mind states, because there is satisfaction as a result, therefore more likely to occur in the future, thus more likely to strengthen the already bad habit patterns that are there. Killing embryos or whatever (most cases) is more a form of self defense, because it is made for avoidance of future harm then for satisfaction, still bad but less then the prior example.

Correct, since intention matters and is the biggest factor in the karmic results. although if you killed an animal for a similar reason as killing a human embryo the human embryo would be heavier karma, as killing a human is worse when all factors are the same. but yes, killing an embryo can be less severe than killing an animal based on the circumstance of the intent/mindset.

I don't think what you kill matters in the least. If you unintentionally press a button which will lead to a nuclear strike killing million humans/ animals/ embryos it won't matter karmically at all. .

That may be what you think. But that isn't the case in Buddhism. Even unintentional acts cause kamma, albeit a smaller amount. There is clear evidence of this in the texts. And yes what you kill does matter according to Buddhism. If giving to a human is more meritorious than giving to an animal (which it is according to the MN 142, the Dakkhiṇāvibhaṅga sutta) than it is logical that killing a human is worse than killing an animal when all factors r equal. I'm pretty sure theres a sutta or commentary that's says it too, I just don't know where it is by heart. Again it can be worse to kill an animal than a human if the intent is different. But saying what u kill doesn't matter simply does not line up with Buddhism.

[TRobinson465]

There are two aspects:

1. Have self honesty and simply recognize that an evil act is an evil act and it'll bear consequences.

Yes. Instead of trying to pretend it's not bad kamma when it is. Just accept that it is. Just like killing termites to protect ur house, lying to save your job, stealing out of starvation. Actions have consequences. It is ur decision to analyze what is the best choice. But don't pretend these actions aren't bad kamma when they are. It is just a matter of if you think it's worth the karma or not. Like killing termites to protect your house. To some Buddhists it's worth it. To others it is not. But they don't live in fantasy world where they pretend killing termites isn't bad kamma at all. Just be honest and make your choice accordingly.

[robertk]

There are two aspects:

1. Have self honesty and simply recognize that an evil act is an evil act and it'll bear consequences.

Yes. Instead of trying to pretend it's not bad kamma when it is. Just accept that it is. Just like killing termites to protect ur house, lying to save your job, stealing out of starvation. Actions have consequences. It is ur decision to analyze what is the best choice. But don't pretend these actions aren't bad kamma when they are. It is just a matter of if you think it's worth the karma or not. Like killing termites to protect your house. To some Buddhists it's worth it. To others it is not. But they don't live in fantasy world where they pretend killing termites isn't bad kamma at all. Just be honest and make your choice accordingly.

[mario92]

The buddha said what you do to an animal the result is 100 times the result, what you give-do to ordinary human 1000 times the result, to virtous human a 100,000 (hundred thousand), it is in the dakkina vibhanga sutta

[Meggo]

Correct, since intention matters and is the biggest factor in the karmic results. although if you killed an animal for a similar reason as killing a human embryo the human embryo would be heavier karma, as killing a human is worse when all factors are the same. but yes, killing an embryo can be less severe than killing an animal based on the circumstance of the intent/mindset.

I don't think what you kill matters in the least. If you unintentionally press a button which will lead to a nuclear strike killing million humans/ animals/ embryos it won't matter karmically at all. .

That may be what you think. But that isn't the case in Buddhism. Even unintentional acts cause kamma, albeit a smaller amount. There is clear evidence of this in the texts. And yes what you kill does matter according to Buddhism. If giving to a human is more meritorious than giving to an animal (which it is according to the MN 142, the Dakkhiṇāvibhaṅga sutta) than it is logical that killing a human is worse than killing an animal when all factors r equal. I'm pretty sure theres a sutta or commentary that's says it too, I just don't know where it is by heart. Again it can be worse to kill an animal than a human if the intent is different. But saying what u kill doesn't matter simply does not line up with Buddhism.

I think this is because you have to have more psychopathic or have a more negative emotional impetus to kill people in general compared to animals compared to insects, so it is a sign of a more degenerate mind not because people are more important. Same with sages, if you kill people who obviously are a positive influence in the world or are even of help to you (killing parents for example) but you are easily able to ignore that while focusing on your negative emotions towards them (e.g. envy) it is a sign of deep psychological illness. So the prognosis is bad, meaning the probability to reach enlightenment is lower. This is what is the problem is not all the other stuff. I don't believe in a karmic system that works outside of your mind. I don't think killing embryos by proxy (doctors) is correlated to a mind of high degenerative capacity. Probably like killing a bunch of insects, bad but not horrible and maybe even beneficial if the time that is gained (children older than embryos need a lot of time) is used to practice.

[Jack19990101]

I think killing whom/what, does matter kammic wise.
I derive it by velama sutta - it is sutta describing amount of merit made by dana to different beings.
I assume it is applicable of demerit similarly.

[Meggo]

I think killing whom/what, does matter kammic wise.
I derive it by velama sutta - it is sutta describing amount of merit made by dana to different beings.
I assume it is applicable of demerit similarly.

As i have already written in this thread, i think that this is due to the quality of the mind that is doing the deed. Giving dana to higher beings means being able to recognize what is good vs. what is bad while also deciding to support what is good. This is a symptom of a mind being less afflicted. It is just a prognosis about the future state of your mind. A healthy mind today will probably do healthy things tomorrow and the day after, good karma will increase while the accumulation of bad karma will be attenuated. I don't believe in a system outside of your mind deciding who is good and who is bad and punishing people for doing wrong things.

[TRobinson465]

I think this is because you have to have more psychopathic or have a more negative emotional impetus to kill people in general compared to animals compared to insects, so it is a sign of a more degenerate mind not because people are more important. Same with sages, if you kill people who obviously are a positive influence in the world or are even of help to you (killing parents for example) but you are easily able to ignore that while focusing on your negative emotions towards them (e.g. envy) it is a sign of deep psychological illness. So the prognosis is bad, meaning the probability to reach enlightenment is lower. This is what is the problem is not all the other stuff. I don't believe in a karmic system that works outside of your mind. I don't think killing embryos by proxy (doctors) is correlated to a mind of high degenerative capacity. Probably like killing a bunch of insects, bad but not horrible and maybe even beneficial if the time that is gained (children older than embryos need a lot of time) is used to practice.

I think you are definitely partially right here. although who you kill does matter (ie killing an unethical vs killing someone who observes 5 precepts), you are right that how you see the killing does indeed have an effect, as is the effort needed to do the killing. killing an insect is easy, killing an elephant is hard, killing a human is hardest due to murder laws. But since killing an embryo is less effort than killing a full fledged human it is reasonable to consider it less severe kamma, although i would say its mainly due to the relative ease and view that some ppl have that dont consider embryos living (even tho in buddhism they are), rather than the result of the embryo itself being less severe killing target than full fledged humans.

[Johann]

There are two aspects:

1. Have self honesty and simply recognize that an evil act is an evil act and it'll bear consequences.

Yes. Instead of trying to pretend it's not bad kamma when it is. Just accept that it is. Just like killing termites to protect ur house, lying to save your job, stealing out of starvation. Actions have consequences. It is ur decision to analyze what is the best choice. But don't pretend these actions aren't bad kamma when they are. It is just a matter of if you think it's worth the karma or not. Like killing termites to protect your house. To some Buddhists it's worth it. To others it is not. But they don't live in fantasy world where they pretend killing termites isn't bad kamma at all. Just be honest and make your choice accordingly.

Approving kills a lot, good householder, not to speak of signs and speech.

One wouldn't exept to do even the slightest if aware of consequence, or remember. Ideas of no-self or what ever household-equanimity strategy will not prevent.

[cappuccino]

What is the consequence of these actions?

Monks, the taking of life — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades.

The slightest of all the results coming from the taking of life is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to a short life span.


Vipaka Sutta: Results

[bpallister]

the marjority of women in the West? Really??