No doer in advaita, similar things with budhist teachings found in advaita texts

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
asahi
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Re: No doer in advaita, similar things with budhist teachings found in advaita texts

Post by asahi »

If there is a state called nibbana , that would be in contrary to the Buddha's teachings . Because you have no way of knowing it . You are the conditioned , nibbana is the unconditioned . How does both meet ?! :shrug:
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Spiny Norman
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Re: No doer in advaita, similar things with budhist teachings found in advaita texts

Post by Spiny Norman »

asahi wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:24 am If there is a state called nibbana , that would be in contrary to the Buddha's teachings . Because you have no way of knowing it . You are the conditioned , nibbana is the unconditioned . How does both meet ?! :shrug:
The cessation of craving, aversion and delusion (Nibbana) would be known by the mind, wouldn't it? Like with the third frame of satipatthana.
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asahi
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Re: No doer in advaita, similar things with budhist teachings found in advaita texts

Post by asahi »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:32 am
asahi wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:24 am If there is a state called nibbana , that would be in contrary to the Buddha's teachings . Because you have no way of knowing it . You are the conditioned , nibbana is the unconditioned . How does both meet ?! :shrug:
The cessation of craving, aversion and delusion (Nibbana) would be known by the mind, wouldn't it? Like with the third frame of satipatthana.
No , if it means it is described as a state after the breakup of the body .
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Spiny Norman
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Re: No doer in advaita, similar things with budhist teachings found in advaita texts

Post by Spiny Norman »

asahi wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:43 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:32 am
asahi wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:24 am If there is a state called nibbana , that would be in contrary to the Buddha's teachings . Because you have no way of knowing it . You are the conditioned , nibbana is the unconditioned . How does both meet ?! :shrug:
The cessation of craving, aversion and delusion (Nibbana) would be known by the mind, wouldn't it? Like with the third frame of satipatthana.
No , if it means it is described as a state after the breakup of the body .
Where is Nibbana described as a state after the break-up of the body?
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asahi
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Re: No doer in advaita, similar things with budhist teachings found in advaita texts

Post by asahi »

I said "if" !
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Spiny Norman
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Re: No doer in advaita, similar things with budhist teachings found in advaita texts

Post by Spiny Norman »

Advaita presents Atman/Brahman as the underlying reality "beneath" the sheaths (koshas).
Meanwhile, the Buddhist suttas present Nibbana as a (mind)state free from craving, aversion and delusion.

I'm not seeing an obvious similarity.
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auto
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Re: No doer in advaita, similar things with budhist teachings found in advaita texts

Post by auto »

Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:42 pm
auto wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:14 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:12 am

Which texts?
In the Buddhist suttas only Nibbana is exempt from impermanence.
Are you claiming Nibbana is equal to Atman/Brahman?
you are taking it out of contexts.

The idea is that the purana texts say(paraphrazing, my conclusion) that attaining Big self will end rebirth. Budhist text also say things about ending rebirth. So, yes attaining nibbana is equal to attaining Brahman since both end the cycle in samsara.
Where in the Buddhist suttas does it say that Nibbana is Brahman?
Attaining the brahman, is a stage of a living entity where you give up the transitory form(rupa). Whereas the union with the brahman or knowledge of brahman and self being the same thing, and merging into one is non-desireable, a low goal.

low grade liberation,
http://www.hindupedia.com/en/S%C4%81yujya wrote:Sāyujya literally means ‘getting united with God’.
In this state of liberation, the jīva gets merged in the Supreme even as a river merges with the sea or ocean.
Union is different from attaining.
Spiny Norman
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Re: No doer in advaita, similar things with budhist teachings found in advaita texts

Post by Spiny Norman »

auto wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:31 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:42 pm
auto wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:14 pm
you are taking it out of contexts.

The idea is that the purana texts say(paraphrazing, my conclusion) that attaining Big self will end rebirth. Budhist text also say things about ending rebirth. So, yes attaining nibbana is equal to attaining Brahman since both end the cycle in samsara.
Where in the Buddhist suttas does it say that Nibbana is Brahman?
Attaining the brahman, is a stage of a living entity where you give up the transitory form(rupa). Whereas the union with the brahman or knowledge of brahman and self being the same thing, and merging into one is non-desireable, a low goal.

low grade liberation,
http://www.hindupedia.com/en/S%C4%81yujya wrote:Sāyujya literally means ‘getting united with God’.
In this state of liberation, the jīva gets merged in the Supreme even as a river merges with the sea or ocean.
Union is different from attaining.
As usual, you haven't actually answered the question I posed. :shrug:

And you still haven't demonstrated a significant similarity between Advaita and Buddhism.
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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auto
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Re: No doer in advaita, similar things with budhist teachings found in advaita texts

Post by auto »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:51 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:42 pm

Where in the Buddhist suttas does it say that Nibbana is Brahman?
As usual, you haven't actually answered the question I posed. :shrug:
why don't you use search to know whether there any Sutta say Nibbana is Brahman? it's obvious that there isn't such saying.
Spiny Norman
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Re: No doer in advaita, similar things with budhist teachings found in advaita texts

Post by Spiny Norman »

auto wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:54 pm
why don't you use search to know whether there any Sutta say Nibbana is Brahman? it's obvious that there isn't such saying.
So why are you making these unsubstantiated claims?
Nibbana isn't Brahman, and Buddhism isn't Advaita.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Spiny Norman
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Re: No doer in advaita, similar things with budhist teachings found in advaita texts

Post by Spiny Norman »

asahi wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:34 am I said "if" !
That's my point really. In the suttas Nibbana is described as a living experience, not something which happens with the break-up of the body.

And unlike with the Hindu traditions, Nibbana isn't described in terms of union or merging, or whatever. It's mostly described in terms of cessation.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
auto
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Re: No doer in advaita, similar things with budhist teachings found in advaita texts

Post by auto »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:19 am
asahi wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:34 am I said "if" !
That's my point really. In the suttas Nibbana is described as a living experience, not something which happens with the break-up of the body.

And unlike with the Hindu traditions, Nibbana isn't described in terms of union or merging, or whatever. It's mostly described in terms of cessation.
.. there is nibbana in hindu texts used plenty of times. And, with the meaning what this word means. Liberation, cessation also translation varies dependent on what word is next to it.
Spiny Norman
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Re: No doer in advaita, similar things with budhist teachings found in advaita texts

Post by Spiny Norman »

auto wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:51 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:19 am
asahi wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:34 am I said "if" !
That's my point really. In the suttas Nibbana is described as a living experience, not something which happens with the break-up of the body.

And unlike with the Hindu traditions, Nibbana isn't described in terms of union or merging, or whatever. It's mostly described in terms of cessation.
.. there is nibbana in hindu texts used plenty of times. And, with the meaning what this word means. Liberation, cessation also translation varies dependent on what word is next to it.
Where does Nibbana appear in Hindu texts? Could you give some examples?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
auto
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Re: No doer in advaita, similar things with budhist teachings found in advaita texts

Post by auto »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:13 pm
auto wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:51 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:19 am

That's my point really. In the suttas Nibbana is described as a living experience, not something which happens with the break-up of the body.

And unlike with the Hindu traditions, Nibbana isn't described in terms of union or merging, or whatever. It's mostly described in terms of cessation.
.. there is nibbana in hindu texts used plenty of times. And, with the meaning what this word means. Liberation, cessation also translation varies dependent on what word is next to it.
Where does Nibbana appear in Hindu texts? Could you give some examples?
https://vedabase.io/en/search/synonyms/ ... %E1%B9%87a
https://vedabase.io/en/library/sb/8/3/11/ wrote: sattvena pratilabhyāya
naiṣkarmyeṇa vipaścitā
namaḥ kaivalya-nāthāya
nirvāṇa-sukha-saṁvide

sattvena — by pure devotional service; prati-labhyāya — unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is achieved by such devotional activities; naiṣkarmyeṇa — by transcendental activities; vipaścitā — by persons who are sufficiently learned; namaḥ — I offer my respectful obeisances; kaivalya-nāthāya — unto the master of the transcendental world; nirvāṇa — for one completely freed from material activities; sukha — of happiness; saṁvide — who is the bestower.

The Supreme Personality of Godhead is realized by pure devotees who act in the transcendental existence of bhakti-yoga. He is the bestower of uncontaminated happiness and is the master of the transcendental world. Therefore I offer my respect unto Him.
actual word nirvana seem to occur only once in bhagavad gita
https://www.holy-bhagavad-gita.org/w/nirvana
https://www.holy-bhagavad-gita.org/chapter/6/verse/15 wrote: yuñjann evaṁ sadātmānaṁ yogī niyata-mānasaḥ
śhāntiṁ nirvāṇa-paramāṁ mat-sansthām adhigachchhati

yuñjan—keeping the mind absorbed in God; evam—thus; sadā—constantly; ātmānam—the mind; yogī—a yogi; niyata-mānasaḥ—one with a disciplined mind; śhāntim—peace; nirvāṇa—liberation from the material bondage; paramām—supreme; mat-sansthām—abides in me; adhigachchhati—attains

BG 6.15: Thus, constantly keeping the mind absorbed in Me, the yogi of disciplined mind attains nirvāṇ, and abides in Me in supreme peace.
Spiny Norman
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Re: No doer in advaita, similar things with budhist teachings found in advaita texts

Post by Spiny Norman »

auto wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:21 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:13 pm
auto wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:51 pm
.. there is nibbana in hindu texts used plenty of times. And, with the meaning what this word means. Liberation, cessation also translation varies dependent on what word is next to it.
Where does Nibbana appear in Hindu texts? Could you give some examples?
https://vedabase.io/en/search/synonyms/ ... %E1%B9%87a
https://vedabase.io/en/library/sb/8/3/11/ wrote: sattvena pratilabhyāya
naiṣkarmyeṇa vipaścitā
namaḥ kaivalya-nāthāya
nirvāṇa-sukha-saṁvide

sattvena — by pure devotional service; prati-labhyāya — unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is achieved by such devotional activities; naiṣkarmyeṇa — by transcendental activities; vipaścitā — by persons who are sufficiently learned; namaḥ — I offer my respectful obeisances; kaivalya-nāthāya — unto the master of the transcendental world; nirvāṇa — for one completely freed from material activities; sukha — of happiness; saṁvide — who is the bestower.

The Supreme Personality of Godhead is realized by pure devotees who act in the transcendental existence of bhakti-yoga. He is the bestower of uncontaminated happiness and is the master of the transcendental world. Therefore I offer my respect unto Him.
actual word nirvana seem to occur only once in bhagavad gita
https://www.holy-bhagavad-gita.org/w/nirvana
https://www.holy-bhagavad-gita.org/chapter/6/verse/15 wrote: yuñjann evaṁ sadātmānaṁ yogī niyata-mānasaḥ
śhāntiṁ nirvāṇa-paramāṁ mat-sansthām adhigachchhati

yuñjan—keeping the mind absorbed in God; evam—thus; sadā—constantly; ātmānam—the mind; yogī—a yogi; niyata-mānasaḥ—one with a disciplined mind; śhāntim—peace; nirvāṇa—liberation from the material bondage; paramām—supreme; mat-sansthām—abides in me; adhigachchhati—attains

BG 6.15: Thus, constantly keeping the mind absorbed in Me, the yogi of disciplined mind attains nirvāṇ, and abides in Me in supreme peace.
These references to nirvana seem far removed from the Nibbana of the suttas.
"..the disciplined mind attains nirvan, and abides in Me.."

I still don't think you've made a case for Advaita being similar to Buddhism, and I don't understand the need or wish for them to be similar.
Why not just recognise and respect the differences between these two traditions? :shrug:
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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