Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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tharpa
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Post by tharpa »

Johann wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:53 am The Sublime Buddha took measures to prevent for dangers by:

* Giving Dhamma in improper flow: disrespect (not leaving stand/home)
* Giving away of what's the possession of the Sangha (down fall)
* Making a living by teaching and favors (corruption)
* Teaching other then Bhikkhus to detail remember, access Dhamma, causing disrespect.
* Bringing Gifts toward the Gems to destruction: sharing given to lay people, outsider.
* Changing the teachings (common creativity)
* No formal relation toward householder, improper dependency
* Teaching Vinaya before ordaining
* Teaching recitation to non-Bhikkhus
* Giving over Bhikkhu Sanghas possession to Bhikkhunis, independency from getting taught, introduced, by the Bhikkhus...
These are concrete assertions, so let's begin here. There are many points here. Are these actually found in the Vinaya as stated?
Let's focus on a single point. "Teaching Vinaya before ordaining". Is that actually a rule in the Vinaya, or is it just Commentary? Is it stated clearly as a rule, or is that just an interpretation?

A precise rather than a long response would be appreciated.

Thanks.
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Post by Johann »

tharpa wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 11:20 am
Johann wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:53 am The Sublime Buddha took measures to prevent for dangers by:

* Giving Dhamma in improper flow: disrespect (not leaving stand/home)
* Giving away of what's the possession of the Sangha (down fall)
* Making a living by teaching and favors (corruption)
* Teaching other then Bhikkhus to detail remember, access Dhamma, causing disrespect.
* Bringing Gifts toward the Gems to destruction: sharing given to lay people, outsider.
* Changing the teachings (common creativity)
* No formal relation toward householder, improper dependency
* Teaching Vinaya before ordaining
* Teaching recitation to non-Bhikkhus
* Giving over Bhikkhu Sanghas possession to Bhikkhunis, independency from getting taught, introduced, by the Bhikkhus...
These are concrete assertions, so let's begin here. There are many points here. Are these actually found in the Vinaya as stated?
Let's focus on a single point. "Teaching Vinaya before ordaining". Is that actually a rule in the Vinaya, or is it just Commentary? Is it stated clearly as a rule, or is that just an interpretation?

A precise rather than a long response would be appreciated.

Thanks.
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Post by tharpa »

tharpa wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 11:20 am Are these actually found in the Vinaya as stated?
Let's focus on a single point. "Teaching Vinaya before ordaining". Is that actually a rule in the Vinaya, or is it just Commentary? Is it stated clearly as a rule, or is that just an interpretation?
If I want an answer to this question, it appears I need to answer it myself. From my five minutes of research, it appears there is no such prohibition. Apparently there have been some monks who have interpreted the prohibition against laymen in the sima as meaning that laymen can't be taught Vinaya, but this seems like a stretch. A discussion on it can be found here: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/sh ... /20?page=2
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Post by perkele »

tharpa wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 2:33 pm
tharpa wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 11:20 am Are these actually found in the Vinaya as stated?
Let's focus on a single point. "Teaching Vinaya before ordaining". Is that actually a rule in the Vinaya, or is it just Commentary? Is it stated clearly as a rule, or is that just an interpretation?
If I want an answer to this question, it appears I need to answer it myself. From my five minutes of research, it appears there is no such prohibition. Apparently there have been some monks who have interpreted the prohibition against laymen in the sima as meaning that laymen can't be taught Vinaya, but this seems like a stretch. A discussion on it can be found here: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/sh ... /20?page=2
My understanding is that it might seem inappropriate for a monk to teach rules of conduct to an outsider who has no obligation to follow them. As long as there is no formal relation to the rules, no duty to follow them, it can become a topic of entertainment and idle curiosity. Some rules may seem "weird" for one who has not committed himself to following them. So it might be a protection to not subject these rules to ridicule and disrespectful idle discussion. Monastics are supposed to train themselves in following the rules which they might not even yet understand in their full consequence and importance. It is their training to familiarize themselves with them in every situation. Talking about the rules with their fellows in training would be guided by the intent to improve themselves in abiding by them, clarifying doubts and encouraging each other, while talking about them with laypeople or those with a mind more inclined to a lay-person-like life might stray off in very different directions.
I don't know if something like that is written down somewhere. But at least that is how it makes sense to me that there would be a certain "taboo" on discussing Vinaya with laypeople, not to speak even of teaching, for which there is no formal relationship established.
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Post by tharpa »

perkele wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 3:31 pm
My understanding is that it might seem inappropriate for a monk to teach rules of conduct to an outsider who has no obligation to follow them. As long as there is no formal relation to the rules, no duty to follow them, it can become a topic of entertainment and idle curiosity. Some rules may seem "weird" for one who has not committed himself to following them. So it might be a protection to not subject these rules to ridicule and disrespectful idle discussion. Monastics are supposed to train themselves in following the rules which they might not even yet understand in their full consequence and importance. It is their training to familiarize themselves with them in every situation. Talking about the rules with their fellows in training would be guided by the intent to improve themselves in abiding by them, clarifying doubts and encouraging each other, while talking about them with laypeople or those with a mind more inclined to a lay-person-like life might stray off in very different directions.
I don't know if something like that is written down somewhere. But at least that is how it makes sense to me that there would be a certain "taboo" on discussing Vinaya with laypeople, not to speak even of teaching, for which there is no formal relationship established.
So, by omission, it seems you agree that there is no Vinaya prohibition against it, just a cultural taboo in certain locales. You gave some examples of why this might be the case.

There, are, however, valid reasons for why there can not be and should not be an actual taboo. The Vinaya rules affect laypeople greatly. At least half of the rules are against actions that are not inherently wrong, just things that monks cannot do and that laypeople may have to do for them. The text box would reach its character limit before I could list them all. Here are just a few of the most common:
  • Can't eat after noon.
  • Can't store food.
  • Can't touch money.
  • Can't kill plants.
  • Can't dig the earth.
Etc., etc., etc.

I think the real reason some monks don't like laymen knowing about Vinaya is that then the laymen wouldn't enable their violations. For example, a monk who likes money will prefer that laypeople not know that he's not supposed to touch money (I even had one go so far as to tell me that jatarupa just meant gold and silver jewelry), otherwise they will not give them envelopes of money.
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Post by DNS »

Johann wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:53 am * Giving Dhamma in improper flow: disrespect (not leaving stand/home)
What does this even mean? This is very broad and very vague. It could mean almost anything.
* Giving away of what's the possession of the Sangha (down fall)
What specificially are you talking about? What is in the possession of the Sangha that is being given away? I assume you mean being given away to lay people, but what is it?
* Making a living by teaching and favors (corruption)
Are you referring to lay people who teach Dhamma for a living, charge high fees for instruction, retreats? If so, I agree with you on that.
* Teaching other then Bhikkhus to detail remember, access Dhamma, causing disrespect.
Again, you're being very broad and very vague. What does this mean?
* Bringing Gifts toward the Gems to destruction: sharing given to lay people, outsider.
Sharing is bad? The Buddha taught to lay people. Are you saying monks shouldn't teach lay people?
* Changing the teachings (common creativity)
That has been happening since almost the first day after Buddha's parinibbana. That's why there are hundreds, maybe thousands of Buddhists schools and varieties of Buddhism.
* No formal relation toward householder, improper dependency
Again, you're being very broad and very vague. What does this mean?
* Giving over Bhikkhu Sanghas possession to Bhikkhunis, independency from getting taught, introduced, by the Bhikkhus...
Are you saying you are opposed to the bhikkhuni full ordinations that have been going on in recent years?
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

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DNS wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:00 pm
Sharing is bad? The Buddha taught to lay people. Are you saying monks shouldn't teach lay people?
I think the novice thinks that the EBTs are generally for monks and novices like himself. Where sutta say 'bhikkhus, ..' this is then not for householders to know.
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Post by perkele »

tharpa wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 3:57 pm At least half of the rules are against actions that are not inherently wrong
I think this perfectly demonstrates the reason for the "taboo". For a monk it is wrong. For the purpose of preserving the integrity of Vinaya, discussion is cut off here.

I agree that this can lead to missed opportunities for well-meaning laypeople who don't know and don't understand that the monk "can't do this or that".
There is nothing wrong with a layperson informing themselves, even asking a monk directly. Maybe one will get a direct, clear answer. In some cases not, but reasons for that could be manifold. The assumption "They want it to be taboo so that no one can see their faults" is a very bad general assumption for someone who has taken refuge in Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha.
What seems rightly and understandably somewhat "taboo" is just teaching, instructing, as it could quickly lead to awkward perceptions.

Try to put yourself into their shoes (if they would wear any). Instead of explaining rules to "outsiders" they just try to live by them where conditions for that are given. Not to be demanding and burdensome is a rule as well, or many rules that are about that, which might prohibit much casual discussion.
tharpa wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 3:57 pmjust things that monks cannot do and that laypeople may have to do for them
There is no "have to". And I think it would be strictly against some rules for a monk to suggest something like that.
Last edited by perkele on Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Post by tharpa »

perkele wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:58 pm
The assumption "They want it to be taboo so that no one can see their faults" is a very bad general assumption for someone who has taken refuge in Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha.
Just as the assumption that their motives are pure is a very bad assumption for someone who has taken refuge in Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, unless they are just starting out. All you have to do is watch their behavior and let the truth speak for itself.

I have known many monks quite well over the past 40 years, and I can tell you that there are many, many deeply corrupt monks, as well as some who are outright impostors. The Vinaya is full of them. The Buddha was not in denial about this. Today there are still corrupt monks, and there were no doubt corrupt monks at all times in between. When some monks proclaim self-serving rules that are not in the Vinaya, there is sound reason to be suspicious of their motives.

But yes, even though those with pure motives are rarer than the corrupt, one should not deny the existence of the Noble Ones.

Keep your eyes open.
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Post by perkele »

tharpa wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:11 pmJust as the assumption that their motives are pure is a very bad assumption for someone who has taken refuge in Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, unless they are just starting out. All you have to do is watch their behavior and let the truth speak for itself.
To assume the best first when not knowing someone is always the best.
tharpa wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:11 pmI have known many monks quite well over the past 40 years, and I can tell you that there are many, many deeply corrupt monks, as well as some who are outright impostors. The Vinaya is full of them. The Buddha was not in denial about this.
And yet, you expect them to teach you Vinaya? Why not better observe for yourself? You can discern good and bad behaviour in as much as it concerns you, without any need for you to rely on rules which are not for the purpose of governing you. But better to observe your own behaviour in response. The monastic rules are not made to determine that.
tharpa wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:11 pmToday there are still corrupt monks, and there were no doubt corrupt monks at all times in between. When some monks proclaim self-serving rules that are not in the Vinaya, there is sound reason to be suspicious of their motives.
So would this be an argument for or against monks teaching Vinaya to laypeople?
tharpa wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:11 pmBut yes, even though those with pure motives are rarer than the corrupt,
... which is just natural ...
tharpa wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:11 pmone should not deny the existence of the Noble Ones.
Of course there are more "corrupt" than "pure" monks out there (not even necessarily out of bad motive, just not knowing better, maybe ordained for "low" reasons, born into poverty, given to ordain by parents, following custom to gain some good standing in society, such cases probably exist a lot, not just those who ordained out of conviction).
Therefore it is even more important to:
tharpa wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:11 pmKeep your eyes open.
and to not develop the nimitta of the "corrupt" so much as of the "pure", so one might recognize them.
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

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User13866 wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:12 pm I think the novice thinks that the EBTs are generally for monks and novices like himself. Where sutta say 'bhikkhus, ..' this is then not for householders to know.
Okay, thanks for that "translation." :tongue:

An interesting change in the teachings (common creativity).
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

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perkele wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:40 pm To assume the best first when not knowing someone is always the best.
Agreed.
tharpa wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:11 pmI have known many monks quite well over the past 40 years, and I can tell you that there are many, many deeply corrupt monks, as well as some who are outright impostors. The Vinaya is full of them. The Buddha was not in denial about this.
perkele wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:40 pm And yet, you expect them to teach you Vinaya?
This is a very bizarre thing to say. No, I do not expect the corrupt ones to teach me Vinaya. I expect them to make up a rule that they can't. I thought that was established. I wouldn't want to learn the Vinaya from the corrupt ones any way. One of the many things wrong in that single short sentence is that you seem to have assumed the worst about me. If you re-read what I actually wrote in my original reply that started this, you will see that I was exquisitely accurate. Every word I write is there for a reason.
perkele wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:40 pm Why not better observe for yourself? You can discern good and bad behaviour in as much as it concerns you, without any need for you to rely on rules which are not for the purpose of governing you. But better to observe your own behaviour in response.
This is what's known as a false dichotomy. One does not preclude the other.
perkele wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:40 pm The monastic rules are not made to determine that.
I believe they have multiple reasons. For example, if they are enforced, they help keep out nonspiritual people joining for the wrong reason.
tharpa wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:11 pmToday there are still corrupt monks, and there were no doubt corrupt monks at all times in between. When some monks proclaim self-serving rules that are not in the Vinaya, there is sound reason to be suspicious of their motives.
perkele wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:40 pm So would this be an argument for or against monks teaching Vinaya to laypeople?
For.
perkele wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:40 pm Therefore it is even more important to:
tharpa wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:11 pmKeep your eyes open.
and to not develop the nimitta of the "corrupt" so much as of the "pure", so one might recognize them.
Nimitta is just Commentarial nonsense, right? Recognizing the corrupt as the corrupt is necessary for recognizing the pure as the pure. And vice versa
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

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User13866 wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:12 pm I think the novice thinks that the EBTs are generally for monks and novices like himself. Where sutta say 'bhikkhus, ..' this is then not for householders to know.
Contrary to the view that there are no secret teachings in the Tipitika. :)
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Post by perkele »

tharpa wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 6:24 pmyou seem to have assumed the worst about me.
I assumed much better, actually.
tharpa wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 6:24 pmNimitta is just Commentarial nonsense, right? Recognizing the corrupt as the corrupt is necessary for recognizing the pure as the pure. And vice versa
Stuck with the nimitta of corruption outside oneself, there is really nothing much useful there to focus.
Now even rejecting the word nimitta as "corruption". :jedi:
(Maybe good to read by the way: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2770 :thinking: when returned from the crusade and still not found the way out)

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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Post by User13866 »

I think that householders not learning sutta is foolish.
There is a text (vinaya?) saying that if a householder knows a sutta unknown to the monks then those monks should visit & ask to have it taught to them.
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