Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by Coëmgenu »

I agree that I've my occasional flights into what others would likely think is blatant nonsense woo. I can be self-deprecating in addition to polemical against what I consider to be deprecating to the Dharma!

Either way, my own personal beliefs, Mahāyānika as they are, are not something that I've any intention of defending on this Theravādin forum. Firstly, it could easily be misconstrued as evangelization. Secondly, there is a scriptural chasm. I'd be citing the Buddhāvataṃsaka, the Saddharmapuṇḍarīka, the Vairocanābhisaṃbodhi, the *Vairocanabhāṣitacittabhūmi, and the Mahāparinirvāṇanāmamahāyānasūtra. None of these scriptures are Theravādin, and none of them are the Buddhas' words according to Theravāda, but all of them are various degrees of off-topic for this forum.

*(amateurly) reconstructed Sanskritization
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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AlexBrains92
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:46 pm I agree that I've my occasional flights into what others would likely think is blatant nonsense woo. I can be self-deprecating in addition to polemical against what I consider to be deprecating to the Dharma!
You should be more explicit about your view, IMO. I do appreciate woo-woo :D
I don't understand why my view is deprecating. "Birth", "death"... have to cease as self-referred concepts. Everything else should not be seen as a problem, IMO. The Dhamma is concerned with concepts. That phenomena are products of conceptualization was a thesis of Prajnaptivada too, and Nagarjuna was somehow linked to that school. That was not modernism.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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AlexBrains92
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:46 pm Either way, my own personal beliefs, Mahāyānika as they are, are not something that I've any intention of defending on this Theravādin forum. Firstly, it could easily be misconstrued as evangelization. Secondly, there is a scriptural chasm. I'd be citing the Buddhāvataṃsaka, the Saddharmapuṇḍarīka, the Vairocanābhisaṃbodhi, the *Vairocanabhāṣitacittabhūmi, and the Mahāparinirvāṇanāmamahāyānasūtra. None of these scriptures are Theravādin, and none of them are the Buddhas' words according to Theravāda, but all of them are various degrees of off-topic for this forum.

*(amateurly) reconstructed Sanskritization
Why are you on this forum?

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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Coëmgenu
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by Coëmgenu »

To discuss Śrāvaka Buddhism and the EBTs as well as academic scholarship concerning those EBTs.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
AlexBrains92 wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:13 pm I don't understand why my view is deprecating. "Birth", "death"... have to cease as self-referred concepts.
Well said. The Dhamma is to be applied to and tested against the individual's experience.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by Coëmgenu »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:13 pmI don't understand why my view is deprecating. "Birth", "death"... have to cease as self-referred concepts. Everything else should not be seen as a problem, IMO. The Dhamma is concerned with concepts.
Is there an underlying suffering beneath the concept or not, IMO, is what is at stake when we reduce all to concepts. IMO, extreme versions of the "all is concepts" notion confound the true purport of the Buddhas' teachings, ending suffering itself, not ending suffering-conceptuality. As Venerable Śaila states, "Naught but suffering arose, and suffering itself is what shall cease."
AlexBrains92 wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:13 pmThat phenomena are products of conceptualization was a thesis of Prajnaptivada too, and Nagarjuna was somehow linked to that school. That was not modernism.
Is there any concrete evidence connecting him to the Prajñāptivādins? I'd heard of him associated with much-earlier Āndhrakas. And then there's the wild new theory that he is a dissident Pudgalavādin.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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AlexBrains92
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:15 pm To discuss Śrāvaka Buddhism and the EBTs as well as academic scholarship concerning those EBTs.
Early Buddhism section is perfect for that. I'm feeling more and more uncomfortable here, probably I should post there only.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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AlexBrains92
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:21 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:13 pmI don't understand why my view is deprecating. "Birth", "death"... have to cease as self-referred concepts. Everything else should not be seen as a problem, IMO. The Dhamma is concerned with concepts.
Is there an underlying suffering beneath the concept or not, IMO, is what is at stake when we reduce all to concepts. IMO, extreme versions of the "all is concepts" notion confound the true purport of the Buddhas' teachings, ending suffering itself, not ending suffering-conceptuality. As Venerable Śaila states, "Naught but suffering arose, and suffering itself is what shall cease."
AlexBrains92 wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:13 pmThat phenomena are products of conceptualization was a thesis of Prajnaptivada too, and Nagarjuna was somehow linked to that school. That was not modernism.
Is there any concrete evidence connecting him to the Prajñāptivādins? I'd heard of him associated with much-earlier Āndhrakas. And then there's the wild new theory that he is a dissident Pudgalavādin.
I've read about the similiar two truths doctrine.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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Coëmgenu
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by Coëmgenu »

AFAIK, all of the Mahāsāṃghika doctrines of the two truths are largely congruent. The paramārtha is Nirvāṇa and the saṃvṛti is the saṃskṛta which is navigated by worldlings as the "lokavyavahāra" ("speech of the world").

Unless I'm mistaken, most Mahāsāṃghikas had nine asaṃskṛta dharmas. Wow. Of these, only Nirvāṇa was a paramārtha.

1) Nirvāṇa
2) the worldly cessation that accompanies mere non-attention
3) dependent origination itself
4) - 7) the four arūpyasamāpattis
8) the svabhāvas of the dependently originated dharmas
9) the svabhāvas of the limbs of the āryan path.

Very non-Madhyamaka seeming. No?

It's also like a weird reverse of the Theravādin teachings, wherein there are multiple paramārthas and one asaṃskṛta. The Madhyamakas turn the (likely Ābhidharmika) framework of the Mahāsāṃghikas on its head. Enumeration does not apply to the asaṃskṛta or the paramārtha. There is only existing the saṃskṛta saṃvṛti, enumerated as worldlings desire.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Tue Sep 13, 2022 10:22 pm, edited 9 times in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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AlexBrains92
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:37 pm AFAIK, all of the Mahāsāṃghika doctrines of the two truths are largely congruent. The paramārtha is Nirvāṇa and the saṃvṛti is the saṃskṛta which is navigated by worldlings as the "lokavyavahāra" ("speech of the world").

Unless I'm mistaken, most Mahāsāṃghikas had nine asaṃskṛta dharmas. Wow.
This is interesting:
https://www.scielo.br/j/kr/a/Z5vWZdT3hD ... h/?lang=en

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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Coëmgenu
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Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by Coëmgenu »

I'll read it when I've the time.

:namaste:

As a concluding endnote to this side-discussion that arose discussing the obscure, audacious, and more than occasionally bizarre Abhidharma doctrines of early Buddhist sectarianism, I'd suggest we look at that ninefold Mahāsāṃghika matrix of the asaṃskṛta once more:
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:37 pm1) Nirvāṇa
2) the worldly cessation that accompanies mere non-attention
3) dependent origination itself
4) - 7) the four arūpyasamāpattis
8) the svabhāvas of the dependently originated dharmas
9) the svabhāvas of the limbs of the āryan path.
This list, to put it mildly, is a "hot mess." Not only is it strangely vague, it is downright internally contradictory.

If dependent origination is asaṃskṛta, there is no Nirvāṇa. If the svabhāvas of the dependently arisen dharmas are asaṃskṛta, then that which is dependently arisen must too be asaṃskṛta. What the dickens are the formless spheres doing there? Why are the limbs of the eightfold path counted separately from the dependently originated dharmas if they are all asaṃskṛta?

This list is so out-to-lunch and anomalous, that IMO it means that, if we are to believe that the Mahāsāṃghikas truly entertained such doctrines, they must have held deeply differing notions concerning what these technical Buddhist terms actually meant. There's no way they can possibly be talking about these things on terms of what we might call "normative Buddhist terminology" today.

There is no Buddhism that I know of wherein "dependent origination" is anything other than "the dependently originated dharmas and the conditions that give rise to them." There is no Buddhism that I know of wherein the svabhāva of a dharma is something distinct from the dharma itself. Yet this ninefold matrix suggests those very things. Compounding this is the dearth of Mahāsāṃghika exegetical material. Their Abhidharma texts don't survive. Most of their sūtra-recensions don't survive. None of their Abhidharmaśāstras survive. A few śāstras survive that do not deal with substantially with the asaṃskṛta. We just don't really know what they thought, but clearly it was deeply at variance with the Sthaviravādin Ābhidharmikas.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Joe.c
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by Joe.c »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 4:25 pm What do you think it means? That the Arahant still has the clinging aggregates, or what?
When arahant is still alive they still have 6 senses, however they are not influence or defile by these senses anymore. Because they have transcended above them due to direct wisdom from practice. This practice is not just a single practice one and done.

Lets look at from 7 Awakening factors angle which lead to Upekkha.

When arahant does daily activities (eat, walk, meditate, etc), their mind is always lead towards inside (4 Satipathana), hence there is sati, then, this sati will activate dhamma vicaya (remembering dhamma and analysis of senses experiences), this lead to viriya (power that gain control over them), then lead to piti, pasadhi (relax state body and mind), samadhi and then upekkha (completely known the reality as it is).

Dhamma vicaya here refers to the dhamma on SN 22.122 such as clinging aggregates or anything that related to ending of dukkhas. So, when arahant uses their senses, they are always detached from the senses (i.e. in samadhi, pleasant abiding for 24/7).

Why?

Because the five components of attachment as impermanent, unsatisfactory, disease, cancer, stabbing, misfortune, affliction, alien, disintegrating, empty, and impersonal.

Their mind is automatically do that, just need to direct to the wisdom (yoniso manasikara).

Anyway, this is difficult to understand.

Good luck.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Joe.c wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:54 am When arahant is still alive they still have 6 senses, however they are not influence or defile by these senses anymore. Because they have transcended above them due to direct wisdom from practice. This practice is not just a single practice one and done.

Lets look at from 7 Awakening factors angle which lead to Upekkha.

When arahant does daily activities (eat, walk, meditate, etc), their mind is always lead towards inside (4 Satipathana), hence there is sati, then, this sati will activate dhamma vicaya (remembering dhamma and analysis of senses experiences), this lead to viriya (power that gain control over them), then lead to piti, pasadhi (relax state body and mind), samadhi and then upekkha (completely known the reality as it is).

Dhamma vicaya here refers to the dhamma on SN 22.122 such as clinging aggregates or anything that related to ending of dukkhas. So, when arahant uses their senses, they are always detached from the senses (i.e. in samadhi, pleasant abiding for 24/7).

Why?

Because the five components of attachment as impermanent, unsatisfactory, disease, cancer, stabbing, misfortune, affliction, alien, disintegrating, empty, and impersonal.

Their mind is automatically do that, just need to direct to the wisdom (yoniso manasikara).

Anyway, this is difficult to understand.

Good luck.
Some time ago I replied to you:
AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 8:08 am
Joe.c wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:18 am
AlexBrains92 wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 10:04 pm
Why you think wisdom would regress after emerging from jhana? Amnesia?
I think you misunderstood me. Non returner and above (arahant & Buddha) has maintained purified mind (jhana) till end of life hence the supermundane view due to their wisdom(direct experience). There is no regress for any Ariya ever. At most just stumble upon due to the faculties haven't fully developed.

How can they have amnesia, when the mind is pure. 😁Whatever they want to know, just direct the mind to it. They will know. Some that have psychic power can talk to Deva or Brahma to confirm it. Or the Deva or Brahma come to them to tell them about something that they want to know. 😁

So there is no enter and emerging from jhana for non returner and arahant. Mind is already purified (no hindrances), there is no suddenly become dirty again. Emerging out of jhana is just fake news IMO.

That's how i have understood. If you want to know then practice to have your own experience and wisdom to confirm it. 😁
'No hindrances' is a requirement to enter jhana, but it doesn't necessarily push you into jhana. If an arahant wants to emerge from jhana in order to communicate (as communication requires vitakka-vicara, like it or not), that's possible even in absence of the hindrances. The arahant can enter and emerge at will. Vitakka-vicara is not a problem, papanca is.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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Joe.c
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by Joe.c »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:33 am 'No hindrances' is a requirement to enter jhana, but it doesn't necessarily push you into jhana. If an arahant wants to emerge from jhana in order to communicate (as communication requires vitakka-vicara, like it or not), that's possible even in absence of the hindrances. The arahant can enter and emerge at will. Vitakka-vicara is not a problem, papanca is.
Yeah difficult to understand.

Like I said there is no emerge and enter in Jhana for an arahant especially emerging from 1st jhana to lower state (sensual realm).

For common folk maybe that is the case.

The base for arahant mind is 1st jhana, can't go lower than that. But it may move freely from 1st jhana to above with wisdom.

Btw Vitaka-Vicara, piti, sukha, and Upekkha which are part of jhana factors, won't disturb the samadhi state of an arahant. Once one has mastered the 4th jhana (Samma Samadhi) or above, these factors have been completely known to him/her.

The jhana factors will become very subtle to the developed mind, These jhana factors will not disturb the samadhi mind anymore. Although from time to time, an arahant may need to rest the mind in higher jhana state to refresh.

This is why you see in Sutta sometime an arahant can keep talking dhamma for 24 hours straight without rest. When one is tired, the next arahant will continue the dhamma talk again. The tired one will rest the mind in higher jhana to recharge.

Anyway, Good luck. More practice I guess. :)
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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AlexBrains92
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Joe.c wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:54 am
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:33 am 'No hindrances' is a requirement to enter jhana, but it doesn't necessarily push you into jhana. If an arahant wants to emerge from jhana in order to communicate (as communication requires vitakka-vicara, like it or not), that's possible even in absence of the hindrances. The arahant can enter and emerge at will. Vitakka-vicara is not a problem, papanca is.
Yeah difficult to understand.

Like I said there is no emerge and enter in Jhana for an arahant especially emerging from 1st jhana to lower state (sensual realm).

For common folk maybe that is the case.

The base for arahant mind is 1st jhana, can't go lower than that. But it may move freely from 1st jhana to above with wisdom.
That one could move in reverse from the 4th jhana to the 1st jhana it's just a DN16* nonsense.
How exactly one would lose upekkhasatiparisuddhi and directly return to sukha and then to piti? Nonsense.

*which you don't really accept too, in addition to all other suttas (hundreds of them!) about emerging.
So your assumptions contradict 99.9% of the suttas on jhana, and furthermore you don't fully accept the remaining 0.1% :rolleye:
Joe.c wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:54 am The tired one will rest the mind in higher jhana to recharge.
Yeah, like a battery :roll:
Joe.c wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:54 am Anyway, Good luck. More practice I guess. :)
Thank you, "arahant" :)

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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