Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Joe.c
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by Joe.c »

This is why it is impossible to teach Samma Sati/Samadhi for householder. 😁😅

Remind me of MN 125.
MN 125 wrote:...
Then the novice Aciravata taught Prince Jayasena the Dhamma as he had learned and memorized it. When he had spoken, Jayasena said to him, “It is impossible, Master Aggivessana, it cannot happen that a mendicant who meditates diligently, keenly, and resolutely can experience unification of mind.” Having declared that this was impossible, Jayasena got up from his seat and left.

Not long after he had left, Aciravata went to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and informed the Buddha of all they had discussed.

When he had spoken, the Buddha said to him,

“How could it possibly be otherwise, Aggivessana? Prince Jayasena dwells in the midst of sensual pleasures, enjoying them, consumed by thoughts of them, burning with fever for them, and eagerly seeking more. It’s simply impossible for him to know or see or realize what can only be known, seen, and realized by renunciation. ...
People think they can maintain higher jhana with daily activities. It is just impossible.

Did anyone know that breathing is a dukkha for one who has understood? Wait nobody know that.

Most human take breathing for granted.

Worse teasing someone without knowing the intention of that person. Completely block his own path. 😁 I will cease to respond further. Don't want to create another road block.

Remember One who is in Jhana (samma samadhi) can be tested and proved. Just look at Sutta how. Never trust anyone till it has been tested personally. 😁😁

Anyone who has 7 factors of N8FP will always live in Samma Samadhi 24/7.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
justindesilva
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by justindesilva »

Joe.c wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 12:51 am This is why it is impossible to teach Samma Sati/Samadhi for householder. 😁😅

Remind me of MN 125.
MN 125 wrote:...
Then the novice Aciravata taught Prince Jayasena the Dhamma as he had learned and memorized it. When he had spoken, Jayasena said to him, “It is impossible, Master Aggivessana, it cannot happen that a mendicant who meditates diligently, keenly, and resolutely can experience unification of mind.” Having declared that this was impossible, Jayasena got up from his seat and left.

Not long after he had left, Aciravata went to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and informed the Buddha of all they had discussed.

When he had spoken, the Buddha said to him,

“How could it possibly be otherwise, Aggivessana? Prince Jayasena dwells in the midst of sensual pleasures, enjoying them, consumed by thoughts of them, burning with fever for them, and eagerly seeking more. It’s simply impossible for him to know or see or realize what can only be known, seen, and realized by renunciation. ...
People think they can maintain higher jhana with daily activities. It is just impossible.

Did anyone know that breathing is a dukkha for one who has understood? Wait nobody know that.

Most human take breathing for granted.

Worse teasing someone without knowing the intention of that person. Completely block his own path. 😁 I will cease to respond further. Don't want to create another road block.

Remember One who is in Jhana (samma samadhi) can be tested and proved. Just look at Sutta how. Never trust anyone till it has been tested personally. 😁😁

Anyone who has 7 factors of N8FP will always live in Samma Samadhi 24/7.
And without samma ditthi , no body can follow the following 7 steps of 8fnp. It is pragna that will lead one to obtain samma ditthi which is all about understanding nama rupa , and rest of mula paryaya .
asahi
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by asahi »

Dont mistaken samma samadhi with jhana state . :quote:
No bashing No gossiping
Pulsar
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by Pulsar »

asahi wrote
Dont mistaken samma samadhi with jhana state . :quote:
What is jhana state? Does the emoji reflect the jhana state?
With love :candle:
Misty
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by Misty »

Thank you for this thread. Manasikara has hooked my curiosity.

I’m struggling to sort out and understand what part of the process is being addressed with manasikara.

Does manasikara identify and define only one action/movement of consciousness or does it encompass several functional actions/movements of consciousness?

Is manasikara the movement of consciousness focusing in on an object that has already been foregrounded as most relevant?

Is manasikara the movement of consciousness that somehow scans for or somehow finds relevance which determines an object that is then isolated or selected out from all the possibilities that can be taken as an object?

Has my curiosity gone astray here? Is this line of inquiry picking up the scent of its meaning?
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retrofuturist
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Misty,
Misty wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:12 pm Has my curiosity gone astray here? Is this line of inquiry picking up the scent of its meaning?
Only to the extent that it is yoniso manasikara being discussed rather than the mechanics of manasikara itself.

I shared some thoughts on the mechanics of manasikara previously here and here.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Misty
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by Misty »

Thank you!
Alrac
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by Alrac »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 7:35 pm Greetings,

If all sankata-dhamma or paticcasamuppanne-dhamma (fabricated things) are to be let go of, then what use or benefit is there in systematizing them?

Accordingly, how should paññā (wisdom) itself be regarded with yoniso manasikāra (appropriate attention)?
I'm struggling to understand the above question/intent. Is the above question asking if "paññā" is a "sankata-dhamma"? If so, if "yoniso manasikāra" is also a "sankata-dhamma", how can "yoniso manasikāra" be used to examine "paññā" if fabricated things are to be let go of? :shrug:
justindesilva
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by justindesilva »

Alrac wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:43 am
retrofuturist wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 7:35 pm Greetings,

If all sankata-dhamma or paticcasamuppanne-dhamma (fabricated things) are to be let go of, then what use or benefit is there in systematizing them?

Accordingly, how should paññā (wisdom) itself be regarded with yoniso manasikāra (appropriate attention)?
I'm struggling to understand the above question/intent. Is the above question asking if "paññā" is a "sankata-dhamma"? If so, if "yoniso manasikāra" is also a "sankata-dhamma", how can "yoniso manasikāra" be used to examine "paññā" if fabricated things are to be let go of? :shrug:
You may down load "wise attention , sworld.wordpress.com" , an article by dr. Abeysekara . This gives an answer to the question .
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retrofuturist
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Alrac,

Thank you for your engagement with the topic.
Alrac wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:43 am I'm struggling to understand the above question/intent. Is the above question asking if "paññā" is a "sankata-dhamma"?
No, I'm taking as granted that it is fabricated, since the Noble Eightfold Path is fabricated.
Alrac wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:43 amIf so, if "yoniso manasikāra" is also a "sankata-dhamma", how can "yoniso manasikāra" be used to examine "paññā" if fabricated things are to be let go of? :shrug:
As above, no differently to how the fabricated raft of the Dhamma can lead us to the other shore, nibbana, which is unfabricated.

With that clarified, are you in a position to address the original question with this understanding of its intent?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Alrac
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by Alrac »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 7:35 pm If all sankata-dhamma or paticcasamuppanne-dhamma (fabricated things) are to be let go of, then what use or benefit is there in systematizing them?
What is meant by "to be let go of"? To not attach to them? Or to not utilize them?

Breathing air, eating food, going to the toilet, sound like fabricated things. Or you sure what you are calling a "sankata-dhamma" is the same as what you are calling a "paticcasamuppanne-dhamma"? Can you quote any texts that explain both of these words are what you are calling "fabricated things"?
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retrofuturist
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Alrac,
retrofuturist wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 7:35 pm If all sankata-dhamma or paticcasamuppanne-dhamma (fabricated things) are to be let go of, then what use or benefit is there in systematizing them?
Alrac wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:54 amWhat is meant by "to be let go of"? To not attach to them? Or to not utilize them?
To be used, and then let go of. Like the raft.
retrofuturist wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 7:35 pmBreathing air, eating food, going to the toilet, sound like fabricated things.
Not fabricated by avijja. Hence, neither sankata-dhamma nor paticcasamuppanne-dhamma
Alrac wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:54 amOr you sure what you are calling a "sankata-dhamma" is the same as what you are calling a "paticcasamuppanne-dhamma"?
Yes, quite.
retrofuturist wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 7:35 pm Can you quote any texts that explain both of these words are what you are calling "fabricated things"?
Nothing that compares them both. SN 12.20 speaks of that which is paticcasamuppanne. AN 3.47 speaks of that which is sankhata.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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AlexBrains92
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by AlexBrains92 »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:30 am Greetings Alrac,

Thank you for your engagement with the topic.
Alrac wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:43 am I'm struggling to understand the above question/intent. Is the above question asking if "paññā" is a "sankata-dhamma"?
No, I'm taking as granted that it is fabricated, since the Noble Eightfold Path is fabricated.
Alrac wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:43 amIf so, if "yoniso manasikāra" is also a "sankata-dhamma", how can "yoniso manasikāra" be used to examine "paññā" if fabricated things are to be let go of? :shrug:
As above, no differently to how the fabricated raft of the Dhamma can lead us to the other shore, nibbana, which is unfabricated.

With that clarified, are you in a position to address the original question with this understanding of its intent?

Metta,
Paul. :)
I think we should consider that the term 'paññā', in the broad sense, refers to several things: sammā-diṭṭhi, sammā-saṅkappa, sammā-ñāṇa, sammā-vimutti. The former two are part of the "raft", the latter two are not (rather they are part of the "other shore").
What is commonly called "liberating insight" ('paññā' in the strict sense) is, more specifically, sammā-ñāṇa. That's the arahant's wisdom, that is, the cessation of ignorance. It's unfabricated, it's nibbāna.
Contrary to what etymology would suggest, it's avijjā that is a "presence" rather than an "absence", just like moha. Furthermore, every other nidāna in paṭiccasamuppāda is a "presence", so ignorance must be too.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


- Snp 4.5 -
Alrac
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by Alrac »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:07 am
Alrac wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:54 amOr you sure what you are calling a "sankata-dhamma" is the same as what you are calling a "paticcasamuppanne-dhamma"?
Yes, quite.
OK. Your answer was "yes".
retrofuturist wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 7:35 pmNot fabricated by avijja. Hence, neither sankata-dhamma nor paticcasamuppanne-dhamma. SN 12.20 speaks of that which is paticcasamuppanne. AN 3.47 speaks of that which is sankhata.
I could not find where AN 3.47 refers to fabricated by ignorance. AN 3.47 just says: Arising is evident, vanishing is evident and change is evident. You probably need to provide another more definitive text to show all "sankata-dhamma" is fabricated by ignorance. AN 3.47 seems to not support your previous "yes" answer & even possibly refute your previous "yes" answer.
retrofuturist wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 7:35 pm
Alrac wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:54 amBreathing air, eating food, going to the toilet, sound like fabricated things.
Not fabricated by avijja.
Breathing air, eating food, going to the toilet, sound like arising is evident, vanishing is evident and change is evident.

Your view sound the same as the commonly alleged heretic named Buddhadasa. Are you one of his disciples? I bought one of his books once that said the sankhara in paticcasamuppanne is the 4th aggregate called sankhara khandha in SN 22:79. The solipsism sounding book said about paticcasamuppanne:
What are the concoctings? There are these three kinds of concocting (san˙khāra): bodily concocting, verbal concocting, and mental concocting. Friends, these are called “concocting.”

Friends, why do people call them “concoctings” (san˙khāra)? Because of the activity of concocting into “something” this activity is called “san˙khāra.” And what does this activity concoct into something concocted? It concocts form into “form,” it concocts feeling into “feeling,” it concocts perception into “perception,” it concocts concoctings into “concocting,” and it concocts consciousness into “consciousness.” Because of this activity of concocting into “something” this very activity is called san˙khāra (“concoctings”).45

45 Khajjanīya Sutta, SN 22:79, S.iii.87, CDB 915. The quotation marks are meant to convey a mental conception abstracted from reality as it is.

Buddhadasa. Under the Bodhi Tree: Buddha's Original Vision of Dependent Co-arising . Wisdom Publications. Kindle Edition.
Buddhadasa seems to have said a Buddha does not have a sankhara aggregates because sankhara aggregate is caused by ignorance & creates "a mental conception abstracted from reality as it is."
Last edited by Alrac on Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Paññā and yoniso manasikāra

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Alrac,
Alrac wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:59 pm I could not find where AN 3.47 refers to fabricated by ignorance. AN 3.47 just says: Arising is evident, vanishing is evident and change is evident.
Arising is dependent origination, per SN 12.10 or any other Sutta where you see the phrase "arising, arising".

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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