Excessive reading, which hindrance/fetter is that?

[Alex123]

Hello all,

I wonder, which hindrance/defilement/fetter is excessive reading of:

1) Dhamma books?
Doubt? Restlessness?
Aversion to present moment causing one to escape into "mental" world?

2) Non-Dhamma, non-fiction books (ex: pop-psychology, sociology) .
a) I thought that it might be sensuality, but that seems to involve 5 senses while reading is all mental.

b) Would it fall under sakkaya-ditthi (even if one doesn't claim and cling that "this is the only truth, and it belongs to Me")?


Any ideas?

Thanks.

[Agnikan]

I wonder, which hindrance/defilement/fetter is excessive reading

Excessive reading is a form of lobha, greed. In this case, it is greed for ideas.

(For you Enneagram folks, this form of greed is the prime temptation of the Number 5 person.)

[zerotime]

yes. Proliferation, doubts, laziness...

The switch is the absence of the "sense of urgency" as the sources name to it.

...and there is a good book exploring this subject

https://www.academia.edu/81480646/Sa%E1 ... e?f_ri=113

[DNS]

I'll take an alternate view from the above 2 posts. Not a hindrance, in fact an asset.

Definitely not laziness. A lazy person doesn't read, as it still involves some concentration and work. A lazy person in school looks for Cliff Notes (I suppose that's wikipedia for the younger generations). It's hard to read a long book, fully concentrating and comprehending it. One's mind can wander while reading (like it does with meditation) and so one has to 'go back' trying to recall where the mind started wandering. In that way, it's even similar to meditation. One's knowledge grows. One doesn't attain enlightenment while reading, but one gains a greater understanding of the logic of the teachings (Dhamma books) and then makes progress while meditating later.

[zerotime]

I'll take an alternate view from the above 2 posts. Not a hindrance, in fact an asset.

Definitely not laziness. A lazy person doesn't read, as it still involves some concentration and work. A lazy person in school looks for Cliff Notes (I suppose that's wikipedia for the younger generations). It's hard to read a long book, fully concentrating and comprehending it. One's mind can wander while reading (like it does with meditation) and so one has to 'go back' trying to recall where the mind started wandering. In that way, it's even similar to meditation. One's knowledge grows.

I think you are right... Not really laziness like a lack of interest in Dhamma.
It can be difficult to precise. Although at the other side also is counterproductive feeding an stress around it. The right point is quite evasive

One doesn't attain enlightenment while reading, but one gains a greater understanding of the logic of the teachings (Dhamma books) and then makes progress while meditating later.

at least I believe that we cannot deny this possibility at least for stream-entry. Because reading is not different than hearing.
"Meditation" can be a deceptive word. In fact you also are talking about this, I believe.
While there is attention to Reality and Mind according Dhamma terms this is also "meditation". Reading Dhamma teachings can catalyze the progress at that same moment or later as happens with hearing. Why no.

[Alex123]

at least I believe that we cannot deny this possibility at least for stream-entry. Because reading is not different than hearing.
"Meditation" can be a deceptive word. In fact you also are talking about this, I believe.
While there is attention to Reality and Mind according Dhamma terms this is also "meditation". Reading Dhamma teachings can catalyze the progress at that same moment or later as happens with hearing. Why no.

There is a sutta such as:

"“There are these five rewards in listening to the Dhamma. Which five?
“[1] One hears what one has not heard before. [2] One clarifies what one has heard before. [3] One gets rid of doubt. [4] One’s views are made straight. [5] One’s mind grows serene.
“These are the five rewards in listening to the Dhamma.” — AN 5:202

Point 3&4 strongly indicate stream entry. Point 5 suggests either samadhi or stage very close to it.

[sunnat]

The question is about the excessive. Why does one stop moderating. Wanting something to stay the same, to not be different, to not be something, to be different. Wanting. Craving.

A point. To read is a later development. To be exposed to The Dhamma used to mean experience a virtuous life with the wise and to hear and discuss, which obviously was relatively limited compared to the plethora of talks and reading material of today. Lots of reading obviously doesn’t mean more likely to reach the goal. Another point is that reading is a choice. That’s important. Every moment of picking up text and reading and continuing to read is because of a choice to do so. A choice to put a form in reach of the eye base. Such a choice doesn’t exist for sound. Sound reaches the functioning ear base at any time.

[sunnat]

Further, this choice is a sankhara. It depends on being nurtured.

As an example, ‘sati’ is frequently understood as being ‘remembering’. Sati is mindfulness dependent on training. It arises as a sankhara due to conditions. Initially hearing and so practicing. The more one turns the mind to the act of being mindful the more the impulse to be mindful will arise. The more one hears the instructions to be mindful the more one practices mindfulness and the more the so called ‘memory’ to be mindful arises and so the more one is mindful. Likewise, if there is clinging in regard to intellect and thought, the more one nurtures the impulse to engage in mental acts the more one I-makes and wanders off the path.

[zerotime]

There is a sutta such as:

"“There are these five rewards in listening to the Dhamma. Which five?
“[1] One hears what one has not heard before. [2] One clarifies what one has heard before. [3] One gets rid of doubt. [4] One’s views are made straight. [5] One’s mind grows serene.
“These are the five rewards in listening to the Dhamma.” — AN 5:202

Point 3&4 strongly indicate stream entry. Point 5 suggests either samadhi or stage very close to it.

of course.

DN III 241–43 describes five domains in which liberation (vimutti) may be attained, namely when gladness (pāmojja), joy (pīti), bodily tranquility (passaddha-kāya), happiness (sukha), and then samādhi arise when:

• listening to someone else teach Dhamma,
• while teaching it oneself,
• while making a detailed repetition (vittārena sajjhāyam karoti) ofDhamma,
• while thinking and pondering on and attentively considering (anuvitakketi anuvicāreti manasānupekkhati) Dhamma, or
• when a samādhi-nimitta (a ‘sign’ or mental image in samatha meditation78) is grasped, well attended to and is penetrated with wisdom.

This is extracted from this paper:
"The Saṅgha of Noble Sāvakas, with Particular Reference to their Trainee Member, the Person ‘Practising for the Realization of the Stream-entry-fruit" from Peter Harvey

That scholar paper is so good. Peter Harvey is a wonderful scholar, he is always objective, uncontaminated, precise and interesting. There are few scholar authors really able to accompany a Path of practice, and he is one.

[zerotime]

Further, this choice is a sankhara. It depends on being nurtured.

As an example, ‘sati’ is frequently understood as being ‘remembering’. Sati is mindfulness dependent on training. It arises as a sankhara due to conditions. Initially hearing and so practicing. The more one turns the mind to the act of being mindful the more the impulse to be mindful will arise. The more one hears the instructions to be mindful the more one practices mindfulness and the more the so called ‘memory’ to be mindful arises and so the more one is mindful. Likewise, if there is clinging in regard to intellect and thought, the more one nurtures the impulse to engage in mental acts the more one I-makes and wanders off the path.

[Johann]

I'll take an alternate view from the above 2 posts. Not a hindrance, in fact an asset.

Definitely not laziness. A lazy person doesn't read, as it still involves some concentration and work. A lazy person in school looks for Cliff Notes (I suppose that's wikipedia for the younger generations). It's hard to read a long book, fully concentrating and comprehending it. One's mind can wander while reading (like it does with meditation) and so one has to 'go back' trying to recall where the mind started wandering. In that way, it's even similar to meditation. One's knowledge grows. One doesn't attain enlightenment while reading, but one gains a greater understanding of the logic of the teachings (Dhamma books) and then makes progress while meditating later.

Both, right and wrong, good Brahman.

There are five ways toward liberation (maggas, phalas), when based on required respect, patient, caga: Listen to the Dhamma with proper attention, teaching the Dhamma which has been given with proper attention, citing (verbal, mental) the Dhamma which has been with proper attention, reflected the Dhamma which has been given with proper attention, and the last: having been given the Dhamma, prper received, one might have found an mefitation object.

It's a total wrong idea that paths and fruits usually arise when meditating. Not at all, but only in some cases, very less.

Yet when one neither gets the Dhamma in right ways, does not leave stand/home, reading what ever not given, meditating around in what ever way, what ever effort based on wrong view and no regards will neither develop path nor fruits, as he's up simply for gain, not in association with the Gems.

Of course, listening to Dhamna, for one with faith, is the tool to overcome doubt: arising of saddha, as base of the path, has listening to the good Dhamma as it's cause, abstaining from the 3 misbehaviors... Knowing.

Reading else: Attention to what ever outside of the path, the Dhamma, has one or another of the five hindrances as cause.

But it's also not out of range, that one, reading the Dhamma, is actually total caught by the five evil friends. Most read and learn it to maintain their stand, to defend, win: ill-will. Other because pleasing, others because restless, others because lazy to go on and do the task.

[Johann]

There is a sutta such as:

"“There are these five rewards in listening to the Dhamma. Which five?
“[1] One hears what one has not heard before. [2] One clarifies what one has heard before. [3] One gets rid of doubt. [4] One’s views are made straight. [5] One’s mind grows serene.
“These are the five rewards in listening to the Dhamma.” — AN 5:202

Point 3&4 strongly indicate stream entry. Point 5 suggests either samadhi or stage very close to it.

of course.

DN III 241–43 describes five domains in which liberation (vimutti) may be attained, namely when gladness (pāmojja), joy (pīti), bodily tranquility (passaddha-kāya), happiness (sukha), and then samādhi arise when:

• listening to someone else teach Dhamma,
• while teaching it oneself,
• while making a detailed repetition (vittārena sajjhāyam karoti) ofDhamma,
• while thinking and pondering on and attentively considering (anuvitakketi anuvicāreti manasānupekkhati) Dhamma, or
• when a samādhi-nimitta (a ‘sign’ or mental image in samatha meditation78) is grasped, well attended to and is penetrated with wisdom.

This is extracted from this paper:
"The Saṅgha of Noble Sāvakas, with Particular Reference to their Trainee Member, the Person ‘Practising for the Realization of the Stream-entry-fruit" from Peter Harvey

That scholar paper is so good. Peter Harvey is a wonderful scholar, he is always objective, uncontaminated, precise and interesting. There are few scholar authors really able to accompany a Path of practice, and he is one.

Well pointed out to that extend, good householder, yet reading for becoming scholar, trading one's skills certain will neither take the scholar nor the student toward developing the base requirements. Who would take the words and stories of one not left home really serious to an extend to leave stand, to an extend to develop the base?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

I wonder, which hindrance/defilement/fetter is excessive reading of:

1) Dhamma books?
Doubt? Restlessness?
Aversion to present moment causing one to escape into "mental" world?

It depends why you're reading...

If it's a trivial academic endeavour borne of scholasticism and accumulation then it is simply a waste of time.

If what is being read is being contemplated with respect to the reader's situation, then the text is a valuable support for dhammanussati.

Metta,
Paul.

[User13866]

Monk, there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions.[1] He spends the day in Dhamma-study. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on study, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.

"Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and teaches it in full detail to others. He spends the day in Dhamma-description. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on description, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.

"Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and recites it in full detail. He spends the day in Dhamma-recitation. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on recitation, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.

"Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and thinks about it, evaluates it, and examines it with his intellect. He spends the day in Dhamma-thinking. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on thinking, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.

"Then there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions. He doesn't spend the day in Dhamma-study. He doesn't neglect seclusion. He commits himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who dwells in the Dhamma.

"Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the one who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, the one who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the Dhamma. Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

A person studies and feels good about it, it becomes his habit and he spends his day doing it. It's close to entertainment but it's also laziness & whatnot unwholesome things from which he doesn't seclude himself.

[zerotime]

Well pointed out to that extend, good householder, yet reading for becoming scholar, trading one's skills certain will neither take the scholar nor the student toward developing the base requirements. Who would take the words and stories of one not left home really serious to an extend to leave stand, to an extend to develop the base?

yes, sure. I didn't say that because the scholar production should be taken like a direct refference of practice. Just I mean when an scholar work dealing with the sources is well made, with objectivity, without excessive speculations or ideological contaminations, this can become a help to understand better the teaching. Although this is not very common.

It's a total wrong idea that paths and fruits usually arise when meditating. Not at all, but only in some cases, very less.

I think you are fully right. Although is amazing how many people believes the opposite. Maybe the images of arhanthood in the sources are used for the stream-entry, I don't know really. Although an investigation in the lay ariya people appearing inside the sources shows the meditation situations to attain magga were rare instead common

Are you a bhikkhu? Anyway