Are people with ASPD unteachable?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User13866
Posts: 1238
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:50 am

Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

Post by User13866 »

Jack19990101 wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 12:31 am Social skills are not a deal breaker in Dhamma practice.
Intensity of ill-will & greed - a small heart, is the deal breaker.

In current era, material is on the internet, a physical sangha participation is not as important.

It is more important that one likes one's own company. As most of the effort in Dhamma practice, is exerted when one is not around others.
Well put. One's company can make or break a practice for one who is independent, not to speak of one who is dependent on a teacher.
TRobinson465
Posts: 1783
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

Post by TRobinson465 »

I've met a true sociopath before and they were terrible to be around, at least the one I met.

I don't think they are unteachable. U just have to convince them it is in their best interest to act in accordance with the dhamma. Given Buddhism's extensive law of kamma system I think that's possible. U just can't use Buddhism to appeal to their sense of empathy, since they can't feel any.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
User avatar
tharpa
Posts: 175
Joined: Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:56 am
Location: North America
Contact:

Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

Post by tharpa »

Radix wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:50 pm
Dhammapardon wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:08 pm What if they are dysfunctional and struggle to understand Sangha participation and cause tumult? Will Sangha give up or leave them behind?
Like elsewhere in society, they can obtain positions of power and leadership.
Will they go to hungry ghost or hell if they can't understand?
Frankly, that's hard to believe. Sociopaths generally seem to do quite well. It's other people who have problems with them. And if any religion, it's Buddhism that is perfect for protecting sociopathy, under the guise of detachment, taking responsibility for one's feelings, etc.
I think you don't understand what Anti-Social Personality Disorder (formerly called Sociopathy) is. These are the kind of people who end up in prison repeatedly. ASPD and narcissism are the two most common diagnoses for inmates in prisons. Yes, many of them do end up in lower realms after death. Angulimala would have ended up in the lower realms if he had not met the Buddha.

Since they have no concern for others, the only way to get through to them is to help them understand that it's in their own best interest not to harm others.

Dr. David A. Wood, a Christian expert on Islam, is a psychopath, but his life was turned around by Christianity.

You may be thinking of introversion.
May all beings, in or out of the womb, be well, happy and peaceful.
User avatar
Radix
Posts: 1274
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:42 pm

Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

Post by Radix »

tharpa wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:12 pm I think you don't understand what Anti-Social Personality Disorder (formerly called Sociopathy) is. These are the kind of people who end up in prison repeatedly.
The other big group of people with ASPD are the white collar sociopaths, those who never get their own hands dirty and who rarely get caught even though they ruin the lives not of dozens but thousands of people.
They often obtain positions of leadership and power.
The phenomenon is so common it has a name: sociopathocracy.
Since they have no concern for others, the only way to get through to them is to help them understand that it's in their own best interest not to harm others.
"Ironically, what all sociopathocracies have in common though is this: They are all vehemently, viciously, virulently anti-sociopathocracy."
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17186
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

Post by DNS »

Radix wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:03 pm The phenomenon is so common it has a name: sociopathocracy.
Since they have no concern for others, the only way to get through to them is to help them understand that it's in their own best interest not to harm others.
"Ironically, what all sociopathocracies have in common though is this: They are all vehemently, viciously, virulently anti-sociopathocracy."
Interesting. I don't think they'd make good buddhists, since sociopaths (and psychopaths) wouldn't keep the precepts, no concern for doing good, no remorse.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... ut-tyrants

Sociopathocracies sound more like politicians than anything else. Most politicians will say or do anything to stay in power. George W. Bush went to war in Iraq on flimsy or absent evidence. He has been recorded as saying war is good for winning a second term, as it rallies the people around the leader and he also believed his father did not win a second term because he didn't go to war. Hillary Clinton was a Goldwater supporter in 1964 and very anti-war. Later, when she became a politician, she became a neo-liberal, argued in support of the Iraq War and never saw a war or military action she didn't like. Sociopathocracracies sounds most like politicians, to me.
TRobinson465
Posts: 1783
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

Post by TRobinson465 »

DNS wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:21 pm

Interesting. I don't think they'd make good buddhists, since sociopaths (and psychopaths) wouldn't keep the precepts, no concern for doing good, no remorse.
Generally no. or good people in general. but to say they wouldnt keep the precepts is false. Again, as pointed out above by a number of posters, if you convince them it is in thier own best interest to keep precepts or to meditate, they will. they wont be any good at doing the brahmaviharas until reborn as someone who does have a conscience, but they can manage a minimal amount of morality if they think it will be in thier own best interest
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17186
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

Post by DNS »

TRobinson465 wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:13 am Generally no. or good people in general. but to say they wouldnt keep the precepts is false. Again, as pointed out above by a number of posters, if you convince them it is in thier own best interest to keep precepts or to meditate, they will. they wont be any good at doing the brahmaviharas until reborn as someone who does have a conscience, but they can manage a minimal amount of morality if they think it will be in thier own best interest
Sure, if they're mostly cured or no longer much of a sociopath, then yes, they could keep precepts.
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12876
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

Post by cappuccino »

Sociopath is an invented term

:quote:
TRobinson465
Posts: 1783
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

Post by TRobinson465 »

DNS wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:33 am
Sure, if they're mostly cured or no longer much of a sociopath, then yes, they could keep precepts.
Most sociopaths cannot be cured, and psychopaths cannot. socio/psychopaths are people incapable of feeling empathy and shamelessly act in their self interest at an atypical level- it is just as real of a mental disorder as ADHD, bipolar or schizophrenia. You shouldnt beleive that you can only keep precepts if you are ethical, some people (not even people who are sociopaths) keep precepts largely out of fear of karmic retribution due to thier strong faith in the the law of kamma or of thier own religions system of justice. the same goes with generosity- some people only give for desire of merit or heavenly reward. Even though not everyone does that, and that is not the ideal intention to act on - there are some people who do that and that is just a fact of life.

In the case of psychopaths- they would only keep the precepts or act generous out of fear for thier own well being. This is why athiests argue that belief in hell is a psychopathic belief because only a psychopath would need the existence of hell to not understand morality. But of course, people who argue this kind of miss the fact that

1. belief in hell doesnt mean its the only reason you behave a certain way and

2. that some people are psychopaths. Antisocial personality disorder is real and effects about 1% of the population.

This is where the Buddha's extensive teachings on karma, merit and demerit would be useful (and probably the only thing that would work), to teach socio/psychopaths. People with ASPD are unteachable when it comes to the brahmaviharas, they are not unteachable completely in terms some of the other teachings such as karma.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12876
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

Post by cappuccino »

TRobinson465 wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:53 am Antisocial personality disorder is 1% of the population.
77,500,000 people?
pegembara
Posts: 3465
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

Post by pegembara »

They may not even pass the first test of sila. That is treating others the way you want to be treated.
Strangely it’s also possible that like Angulimala they can also achieve realization faster by being naturally detached and generally more intelligent. Perhaps Angulimala was not a true psychopath as he was able to show empathy.




Then Ven. Angulimala, early in the morning, having put on his robes and carrying his outer robe & bowl, went into Savatthi for alms. As he was going from house to house for alms, he saw a woman suffering a breech birth. On seeing her, the thought occurred to him: "How tormented are living beings! How tormented are living beings!" Then, having wandered for alms in Savatthi and returning from his alms round after his meal, he went to the Blessed One. On arrival, having bowed down to him, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Just now, lord, early in the morning, having put on my robes and carrying my outer robe & bowl, I went into Savatthi for alms. As I was going from house to house for alms, I saw a woman suffering a breech birth. On seeing her, the thought occurred to me: 'How tormented are living beings! How tormented are living beings!'"
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
TRobinson465
Posts: 1783
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

Post by TRobinson465 »

cappuccino wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:59 am
TRobinson465 wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:53 am Antisocial personality disorder is 1% of the population.
77,500,000 people?
Yes, you've probably walked by a sociopath before some time in your life. just like how not all autistic people are like the guy from Rain Man (1988). Not all sociopaths are like Ted Bundy, and like with all mental disorders there is a spectrum of severity. There is even a thing called high functioning psychopaths who can control thier self-satisfying tendencies in a way sufficient to keep them out of jail even tho they can personally feel little to no empathy.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
TRobinson465
Posts: 1783
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

Post by TRobinson465 »

pegembara wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:27 am They may not even pass the first test of sila. That is treating others the way you want to be treated.
Strangely it’s also possible that like Angulimala they can also achieve realization faster by being naturally detached and generally more intelligent. Perhaps Angulimala was not a true psychopath as he was able to show empathy.
Angulimala was not a psychopath at all i dont think, he was killing for a highly goal oriented reason, similar to how non-psychopathic soldiers kill civilians in war. He was simply blinded by his greed for his teacher's final teaching. A true psychopath would kill for sport and show no remorse even if they were made aware of what they were doing.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
pegembara
Posts: 3465
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

Post by pegembara »

TRobinson465 wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:04 am
pegembara wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:27 am They may not even pass the first test of sila. That is treating others the way you want to be treated.
Strangely it’s also possible that like Angulimala they can also achieve realization faster by being naturally detached and generally more intelligent. Perhaps Angulimala was not a true psychopath as he was able to show empathy.
Angulimala was not a psychopath at all i dont think, he was killing for a highly goal oriented reason, similar to how non-psychopathic soldiers kill civilians in war. He was simply blinded by his greed for his teacher's final teaching. A true psychopath would kill for sport and show no remorse even if they were made aware of what they were doing.
That’s a reasonable assessment. Perhaps a true psychopath doesn’t suffer the way a human being does. This lack of pain.

Separation from loved ones and associating with the disliked. Humans are like sheep to the wolf.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Inedible
Posts: 953
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:55 am
Location: Iowa City

Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

Post by Inedible »

A few years ago I met one at work. Most of the people there were uncomfortable around him, but I wasn't. He did what he wanted to do and there was very little that anyone could do to influence his path from the outside. That would be fine if he were on the right path, but he wasn't.
Post Reply