Are people with ASPD unteachable?

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Radix
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Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

Post by Radix »

DNS wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:21 pm Interesting. I don't think they'd make good buddhists, since sociopaths (and psychopaths) wouldn't keep the precepts, no concern for doing good, no remorse.
That's a moot point, since most Buddhists don't keep the precepts either.
Sociopathocracies sound more like politicians than anything else.
Think investment bankers who gamble with the retirement funds of thousands of people; or CEOs who lay off thousands of people in a merger - and all for their own profit. Pharmaceutical companies who conclude that curing people of diseases is not a viable business model. To say nothing of the tobacco and alcohol industries and their justifications for their products.
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Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

Post by TRobinson465 »

Radix wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:57 pm
Think investment bankers who gamble with the retirement funds of thousands of people; or CEOs who lay off thousands of people in a merger - and all for their own profit. Pharmaceutical companies who conclude that curing people of diseases is not a viable business model. To say nothing of the tobacco and alcohol industries and their justifications for their products.
These dont necessarily indicate sociopathy. One can do evil things due to being blinded by thier greed. Much of this can be attributed to excessive greed blinding people of empathy. same with politicians and thier greed for power, although im sure some are sociopaths.

Just like how not all sociopaths are criminals not all evil people are sociopaths. You have to remember, the default evil person people compare others to as a brainless ad hominem attack when they dont have a real argument, Adolf Hitler, wasnt actually a sociopath despite being incredibly evil. Stalin probably was a sociopath but Hitler was not. Despite being evil, due to being blinded by his racial hatred and greed for power, Hitler was documented to be able to show empathy. He famously was uncomfortable with the killing of animals in movies and made animal experimentation illegal (replacing it with the jews). There's also a Jewish family doctor named Eduard Bloch who treated Hitlers mother when he was young and didn't charge them because they were so poor. During Hitler's reign of terror Bloch wrote a letter to Hitler asking for help and Hitler gave him SS protection and organized his safe emigration to the US. A true sociopath wouldnt bother no matter how much of a debt of gratitude they owed. Hitler was evil but not a sociopath.

Hitler just didn't feel emppahty for people he dubbed inferior. Its similar to how farmers who kill animals dont feel empathy for the animals they kill because they are used to it or think those animals dont matter, but people who arent exposed to the regular killing of animals do feel empathy for them. Or people who feel no empathy for people who are your political opposition or who disagree with you on religion when something bad happens to them.
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Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

Post by Mahabrahma »

Since like, all this stuff in the flow of things is ever temporary and changing, don't attach an ice block self to a sociopath. Buddha came to Teach and save such exact people and lead them to Buddhahood. After all we all have the Same potential, and Buddha Nature.

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Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

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TRobinson465 wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:23 am These dont necessarily indicate sociopathy. One can do evil things due to being blinded by thier greed. Much of this can be attributed to excessive greed blinding people of empathy. same with politicians and thier greed for power, although im sure some are sociopaths.

Just like how not all sociopaths are criminals not all evil people are sociopaths. You have to remember, the default evil person people compare others to as a brainless ad hominem attack when they dont have a real argument, Adolf Hitler, wasnt actually a sociopath despite being incredibly evil. Stalin probably was a sociopath but Hitler was not. Despite being evil, due to being blinded by his racial hatred and greed for power, Hitler was documented to be able to show empathy. He famously was uncomfortable with the killing of animals in movies and made animal experimentation illegal (replacing it with the jews). There's also a Jewish family doctor named Eduard Bloch who treated Hitlers mother when he was young and didn't charge them because they were so poor. During Hitler's reign of terror Bloch wrote a letter to Hitler asking for help and Hitler gave him SS protection and organized his safe emigration to the US. A true sociopath wouldnt bother no matter how much of a debt of gratitude they owed. Hitler was evil but not a sociopath.

Hitler just didn't feel emppahty for people he dubbed inferior. Its similar to how farmers who kill animals dont feel empathy for the animals they kill because they are used to it or think those animals dont matter, but people who arent exposed to the regular killing of animals do feel empathy for them. Or people who feel no empathy for people who are your political opposition or who disagree with you on religion when something bad happens to them.
It seems to be important to you to distinguish between people who are "merely" greedy and people who are "truly" evil. It's a distinction people often make, but can it be supported by the suttas?
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Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

Post by Radix »

Mahabrahma wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:59 am Since like, all this stuff in the flow of things is ever temporary and changing, don't attach an ice block self to a sociopath. Buddha came to Teach and save such exact people and lead them to Buddhahood. After all we all have the Same potential, and Buddha Nature.
Not per Theravada doctrine.
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Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

Post by TRobinson465 »

Radix wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:02 am
TRobinson465 wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:23 am These dont necessarily indicate sociopathy. One can do evil things due to being blinded by thier greed. Much of this can be attributed to excessive greed blinding people of empathy. same with politicians and thier greed for power, although im sure some are sociopaths.

Just like how not all sociopaths are criminals not all evil people are sociopaths. You have to remember, the default evil person people compare others to as a brainless ad hominem attack when they dont have a real argument, Adolf Hitler, wasnt actually a sociopath despite being incredibly evil. Stalin probably was a sociopath but Hitler was not. Despite being evil, due to being blinded by his racial hatred and greed for power, Hitler was documented to be able to show empathy. He famously was uncomfortable with the killing of animals in movies and made animal experimentation illegal (replacing it with the jews). There's also a Jewish family doctor named Eduard Bloch who treated Hitlers mother when he was young and didn't charge them because they were so poor. During Hitler's reign of terror Bloch wrote a letter to Hitler asking for help and Hitler gave him SS protection and organized his safe emigration to the US. A true sociopath wouldnt bother no matter how much of a debt of gratitude they owed. Hitler was evil but not a sociopath.

Hitler just didn't feel emppahty for people he dubbed inferior. Its similar to how farmers who kill animals dont feel empathy for the animals they kill because they are used to it or think those animals dont matter, but people who arent exposed to the regular killing of animals do feel empathy for them. Or people who feel no empathy for people who are your political opposition or who disagree with you on religion when something bad happens to them.
It seems to be important to you to distinguish between people who are "merely" greedy and people who are "truly" evil. It's a distinction people often make, but can it be supported by the suttas?
Greed causes people to be evil. I am not distinguishing between greedy and evil people, im distinguishing between non-sociopathic evil people and sociopaths. ASPD is a real neurological condition just like bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, theres a medical definition of it. You can't just go around calling anybody evil like pharma companies or wall street bankers sociopaths (although im sure some are). Thats like me going around calling anybody who gets emotional bipolar. These are real conditions people deal with.
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Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

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TRobinson465 wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:15 pm ASPD is a real neurological condition just like bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, theres a medical definition of it.
This is a Buddhist forum. There is no "ASPD" etc. in the suttas. Worldly concepts shouldn't be given primacy here, they can be used only provisionally, for the purposes of discussion. Otherwise, why bother with Buddhism.
You can't just go around calling anybody evil like pharma companies or wall street bankers sociopaths (although im sure some are).
And nobody did. I gave examples to counter the claim that sociopathocracy is mainly found in politics, hence my examples from business. Note the qualifiers I made when I talked of investment bankers, CEOs etc., the qualifying clauses that follow the "who".
These are real conditions people deal with.
No, there's just greed, aversion, and delusion, in all their varying extents and applications.
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Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

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TRobinson465 wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:15 pm I am not distinguishing between greedy and evil people, im distinguishing between non-sociopathic evil people and sociopaths.
Which is very convenient, especially for the purposes of judgment.
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Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

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Radix wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 3:37 am
TRobinson465 wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:15 pm ASPD is a real neurological condition just like bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, theres a medical definition of it.
This is a Buddhist forum. There is no "ASPD" etc. in the suttas. Worldly concepts shouldn't be given primacy here, they can be used only provisionally, for the purposes of discussion. Otherwise, why bother with Buddhism.
Correct, but the OP is literally asking about ASPD, therefore it is fair game to discuss it. And considering they used the medical term ASPD, I assume they are are talking specifically about the very real medical condition and not just the rhetorical "every bad person is a sociopath", "every emotional person is bipolar" meanings people use in a figurative sense. If you think that because ASPD is not in the suttas and therefore shouldnt be discussed in this forum, take it up with the OP who made the topic about it or the admins.
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Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

Post by TRobinson465 »

Radix wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 3:37 am
TRobinson465 wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:15 pm
These are real conditions people deal with.
No, there's just greed, aversion, and delusion, in all their varying extents and applications.
So are you saying mental disorders are all fake? Autism spectrum disorder, schizophrenia, PTSD, ASPD, ADHD, bipolar disorder, down syndrome, split personality disorder, tourettes syndrome etc are all just the result of too much greed hatred or delusion? And not due to legitimate miswirings or development issues in the neurons of people's physical brains?
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

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TRobinson465 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:14 am So are you saying mental disorders are all fake?
Not fake. This is a huge topic. Even among Western psychologists and psychiatrists there is an ongoing debate about what exactly mental health problems are and how to classify them. The matter is not as straightforward as with physical illnesses (although, debatably, even those are not so simple either).
Autism spectrum disorder, schizophrenia, PTSD, ASPD, ADHD, bipolar disorder, down syndrome, split personality disorder, tourettes syndrome etc are all just the result of too much greed hatred or delusion? And not due to legitimate miswirings or development issues in the neurons of people's physical brains?
Within Buddhism, there is no other way to explain these things, other than with kamma.

What you call "legitimate miswirings or development issues in the neurons of people's physical brains" is due to kamma.

(Or due to the workings of demons and such. But this is then still a matter of kamma.)

Do you want a Buddhist or a non-Buddhist explanation?
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Re: Are people with ASPD unteachable?

Post by TRobinson465 »

Radix wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:01 pm
TRobinson465 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:14 am So are you saying mental disorders are all fake?
Not fake. This is a huge topic. Even among Western psychologists and psychiatrists there is an ongoing debate about what exactly mental health problems are and how to classify them. The matter is not as straightforward as with physical illnesses (although, debatably, even those are not so simple either).
Yes absolutely agree, its not as straightforward. neither was infectious illness before the discovery of germs. doesnt mean infectious illness wasnt a thing back when they didnt know what caused it. It was always a thing, they just didnt know the exact cause.
Autism spectrum disorder, schizophrenia, PTSD, ASPD, ADHD, bipolar disorder, down syndrome, split personality disorder, tourettes syndrome etc are all just the result of too much greed hatred or delusion? And not due to legitimate miswirings or development issues in the neurons of people's physical brains?
Radix wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:01 pm Within Buddhism, there is no other way to explain these things, other than with kamma.

What you call "legitimate miswirings or development issues in the neurons of people's physical brains" is due to kamma.

(Or due to the workings of demons and such. But this is then still a matter of kamma.)

Do you want a Buddhist or a non-Buddhist explanation?
Yes, it is certainly due to kamma. that is the Buddhist explanation. As is physical illness, misfortune, where people are born and most aspects of people's lives. Same with people with ASPD, they have some kind of karma or residual habit so that theyre brains cant process empathy. Which is why its important (given the context of the OPs questoin) to distinguish between true sociopaths like Ted Bundy or (probably) Stalin, and evil non-sociopaths like Hitler. Saying everyone evil is a sociopath is like saying everyone academically smart is autistic. The default ad hominem evil person people liken people they dont like to when they have no actual logical argument, Adolf Hitler, was not even an actual sociopath.

Sociopathic and evil is not the same thing.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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