The underlying implicit metaphysics of Pali Buddhism

[Cause_and_Effect]

The explicit teachings are given in the Nikayas to aid liberation.

I am here starting a discussion about the implcit metaphysics of the dhamma that while not overtly discussed, sheds light on the reality.

In particular some key issues:

- An implicit universal kammic field is a backdrop to the Buddha's teachings

If not, then how is it that if e.g. one commits bad kamma against someone (such as violence), in a subsequent life a negative action will occur to you, and sometimes it will involve that same person's reborn identity.

This then implicitly declares some kind of universal kammic field that all beings and individuals participate in and which can lead to repurcussions and intertlationships between individuals and between lives.

- A Platonic archetypal structure to reality is implicitly declared by the Buddha.

If not, how then is there a repeated order of structure to the rearising of the heavens of the Four Great Kings, the Yama devas, Buddha's and the world etc?

The 'information' for the non-random reoccurance of this structure means there is an archetypal Platonic form to the universe and Samsara.

[Ceisiwr]

The explicit teachings are given in the Nikayas to aid liberation.

I am here starting a discussion about the implcit metaphysics of the dhamma that while not overtly discussed, sheds light on the reality.

In particular some key issues:

- An implicit universal kammic field is a backdrop to the Buddha's teachings

If not, then how is it that if e.g. one commits bad kamma against someone (such as violence), in a subsequent life a negative action will occur to you, and sometimes it will involve that same person's reborn identity.

This then implicitly declares some kind of universal kammic field that all beings and individuals participate in and which can lead to repurcussions and intertlationships between individuals and between lives.

I don't think you need some metaphysical kamma-substance to explain it. You just need a mind with its habits, biases and subjective likes and dislikes.

- A Platonic archetypal structure to reality is implicitly declared by the Buddha.

If not, how then is there a repeated order of structure to the rearising of the heavens of the Four Great Kings, the Yama devas, Buddha's and the world etc?

The 'information' for the non-random reoccurance of this structure means there is an archetypal Platonic form to the universe and Samsara.

Whilst not completely comparable, in biology there is convergent evolution. Two species end up developing the same type of organs. With Buddhist cosmology, we could say that certain conditions always lead to certain results. No Platonism required.

[Cause_and_Effect]

- An implicit universal kammic field is a backdrop to the Buddha's teachings

If not, then how is it that if e.g. one commits bad kamma against someone (such as violence), in a subsequent life a negative action will occur to you, and sometimes it will involve that same person's reborn identity.

This then implicitly declares some kind of universal kammic field that all beings and individuals participate in and which can lead to repurcussions and intertlationships between individuals and between lives.

I don't think you need some metaphysical kamma-substance to explain it. You just need a mind with its habits, biases and subjective likes and dislikes.

This is a weak answer burying your head in the sand. How exactly do 'habits, biases, likes and dislikes' lead to a kammic result of the effect of an action coming back to an individual maybe thousands of years later in another life, and maybe involving the reborn identities of the same individuals involved in the kamma creation?

Your answer is totally non sequitur, and simply clinging to your materialist and nihilist notions.

At least the yogacaryins had a go at finding an answer, although unsatisfactory. I can't see any way around it other than an implicit kammic field, and in fact there is support in the Canon for it.

- A Platonic archetypal structure to reality is implicitly declared by the Buddha.

If not, how then is there a repeated order of structure to the rearising of the heavens of the Four Great Kings, the Yama devas, Buddha's and the world etc?

The 'information' for the non-random reoccurance of this structure means there is an archetypal Platonic form to the universe and Samsara.

Whilst not completely comparable, in biology there is convergent evolution. Two species end up developing the same type of organs. With Buddhist cosmology, we could say that certain conditions always lead to certain results. No Platonism required.

You are here again going well outside your knowledge spheres to apply some bogus Darwinian interpretation of cosmological laws.
For the record, some Nobel prize winning physicists have a Platonic view of the universe and I don't know of any who claim darwinism explains the laws of physics.
It fits with the recurrent archetypal structure of the divine worlds, rather than some far fetched and bizaare notion of the 'repeated evolution' of Buddha's, the realms of the devas who delight in creating, the gods of the pure abodes etc

If this is your current view of ontology and how the universe works on even the mundane let alone supramundane level, it needs some serious reconsideration and study.

[Jack19990101]

To tie this into N8P -
Universal Kammic field, I do think there is such a view. It depends on how one is using it in order to achieve liberation.

It can go multiple ways to gain kamma free -
One believes that they must liberate others, in order to gain kammic-free.
The other way to think. If I share kamma field with others, once one is liberated, one would destroy all kamma. Rest are all liberated atomically.

There is a third way to think of this. in a later time.

[Ceisiwr]

This is a weak answer burying your head in the sand. How exactly do 'habits, biases, likes and dislikes' lead to a kammic result of the effect of an action coming back to an individual maybe thousands of years later in another life, and maybe involving the reborn identities of the same individuals involved in the kamma creation?

If you are asking for the specifics, I can't help you. No one can help you, because only Buddhas fully understand it. The way I try to conceptualise it however is in terms of a stream of conciousness and mind. Based on our intentional actions, under the influence of the āsavā, we engage in good or bad conduct. By engaging in this conduct, we in turn strengthen the āsavā and habituate our mind to certain likes and dislikes and certain behaviours. These likes and dislikes and behaviours lead to different places and results. When the conditions are met, we then experience suffering in various ways. As dispositions and aspects of our mind they aren't located anywhere, no seeds in an underlying conciousness, as they are habits, biases and aspects of our mental stream.

Your answer is totally non sequitur, and simply clinging to your materialist and nihilist notions.

At least the yogacaryins had a go at finding an answer, although unsatisfactory. I can't see any way around it other than an implicit kammic field, and in fact there is support in the Canon for it.

In another thread I said that conciousness is a natural phenomenon. I have also said just now that there is good and bad actions and results of those actions. How does that make me a materialist or a nihilist?

You are here again going well outside your knowledge spheres to apply some bogus Darwinian interpretation of cosmological laws.
For the record, some Nobel prize winning physicists have a Platonic view of the universe and I don't know of any who claim darwinism explains the laws of physics.
It fits with the recurrent archetypal structure of the divine worlds, rather than some far fetched and bizaare notion of the 'repeated evolution' of Buddha's, the realms of the devas who delight in creating, the gods of the pure abodes etc

If you took time to read my post, you would have noticed that I said it wasn't a perfect analogy. All you need to accept is that certain actions lead to certain results when the conditions are right, which I think is more in line with the Dhamma than your Rationalist substance theory. Regarding what Nobel prize winners believe, I'm not much interested. I imagine they believe all kinds of things.

[Coëmgenu]

There's also Nobel syndrome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_disease

[Cause_and_Effect]

If you are asking for the specifics, I can't help you. No one can help you, because only Buddhas fully understand it. The way I try to conceptualise it however is in terms of a stream of conciousness and mind. Based on our intentional actions, under the influence of the āsavā, we engage in good or bad conduct. By engaging in this conduct, we in turn strengthen the āsavā and habituate our mind to certain likes and dislikes and certain behaviours. These likes and dislikes and behaviours lead to different places and results. When the conditions are met, we then experience suffering in various ways. As dispositions and aspects of our mind they aren't located anywhere, no seeds in an underlying conciousness, as they are habits, biases and aspects of our mental stream.

You don't need to give specifics, but you do need to say, which you thus far haven't addresses at all, the point I have mentioned now twice:

How exactly in your conceptualization can kammic actions committed to someone by another, result in sometimes an interelationship between the two individuals over many many lives such that their kammic results and actions becomes connected, if they are not participating in a broader kammic field that 'preserves' this connection?

How can any action such as generosity, result in a 'reward' sometimes in another life of receiving great abundance from another source entirely, in magnified propertion to the kamma generated, if the actions were not occurring in a larger kammic field of which the individual then experiences the kammic result?

There's also Nobel syndrome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_disease

And this clearly isn't an example of it

"It has been argued that the effect results, in part, from a tendency for Nobel winners to feel empowered by the award to speak on topics outside their specific area of expertise"

A Nobel prize winner in physics talking about his Platonic view of physics is significant.

[Ceisiwr]

You don't need to give specifics, but you do need to say, which you thus far haven't addresses at all, the point I have mentioned now twice:

How exactly in your conceptualization can kammic actions committed to someone by another, result in sometimes an interelationship between the two individuals over many many lives such that their kammic results and actions becomes connected, if they are not participating in a broader kammic field that 'preserves' this connection?

How can any action such as generosity, result in a 'reward' sometimes in another life of receiving great abundance from another source entirely, in magnified propertion to the kamma generated, if the actions were not occurring in a larger kammic field of which the individual then experiences the kammic result?

I did address them you just didn't find my replies satisfying. There is kamma done in my past, in this life, that has already ripened. The connection is the stream of dhammas. Certain actions lead to certain results. If you do certain deeds, your mind becomes habituated to certain likes, dislikes, biases and behaviours. Live a violent and angry life, and your mind will seek out more of the same at death. In Buddhist cosmology there are certain realms that said minds are attracted to. I don't see how a theory of a kamma-substance helps, since a major problem with substance theories is A) How you can ever know about them (since they are hidden realities) and B) How an independent thing (which substances are) can be the cause of anything.

[Ceisiwr]

And this clearly isn't an example of it

"It has been argued that the effect results, in part, from a tendency for Nobel winners to feel empowered by the award to speak on topics outside their specific area of expertise"

A Nobel prize winner in physics talking about his Platonic view of physics is significant.

Philosophy and Physics are two different things.

[Ceisiwr]

One way to think of it is this. If someone practices virtue, sense restraint and masters the mind then they will achieve the 1st Jhāna. If they continually practice in this way, then, at the moment of death, their conciousness will seek out the same corresponding state. This leads to the Brahmā-loka. However, for some, despite a lifetime of this practice at death some terrible past deed can resurface leading to aversion, hate or the like. At that point they can be reborn somewhere else say as a human again. As a human they grow up, find they have an interest in spirituality and find they have a natural talent for Jhāna. They subsequently die, but this time their mind becomes established in the Brahmā-loka because of their past wholesome intentional actions without any obstructive past kamma getting in the way. We can see here how kamma can operate across lives, and a hint at how complex it can be, without the need of substance theories.

[Cause_and_Effect]

I did address them you just didn't find my replies satisfying. There is kamma done in my past, in this life, that has already ripened. The connection is the stream of dhammas. Certain actions lead to certain results. If you do certain deeds, your mind becomes habituated to certain likes, dislikes, biases and behaviours. Live a violent and angry life, and your mind will seek out more of the same at death. In Buddhist cosmology there are certain realms that said minds are attracted to.

No, you gave a non-answer to either point, you tried diverting the argument to generic points about habits and the stream of dhammas. Your 'stream of dhammas' idea is also not at odds with being part of a broader kammic field.

So I will spell one of them out for you to address directly:

- How can kamma resultant effects occur between the 'same individuals' further down the line of their respective rebirths, and what or how does the relationship between them remain connected before the kamma results if not that actions occur via a broader kammic field?

I don't see how a theory of a kamma-substance helps, since a major problem with substance theories is A) How you can ever know about them (since they are hidden realities) and B) How an independent thing (which substances are) can be the cause of anything.

Neither of these ideas have any relation to what is being discussed.

We can see here how kamma can operate across lives, and a hint at how complex it can be, without the need of substance theories.

Stop trying to introduce strawman and inaccurate terms like 'substance theory' for something you dont understand and doesn't fit with your darwinian dhamma theories.

And this clearly isn't an example of it

"It has been argued that the effect results, in part, from a tendency for Nobel winners to feel empowered by the award to speak on topics outside their specific area of expertise"

A Nobel prize winner in physics talking about his Platonic view of physics is significant.

Philosophy and Physics are two different things.

At a deep level of physics it becomes metaphysics.
And his theory in any case is actually Platonic physics on a physical level.

[Ceisiwr]

No, you gave a non-answer to either point, you tried diverting the argument to generic points about habits and the stream of dhammas. Your 'stream of dhammas' idea is also not at odds with being part of a broader kammic field.

So I will spell one of them out for you to address directly:

- How can kamma resultant effects occur between the 'same individuals' further down the line of their respective rebirths, and what or how does the relationship between them remain connected before the kamma results if not that actions occur via a broader kammic field?

It is an answer, you just don't agree. At this point I would be repeating myself. Taking less drugs and developing more sense restraint will help with your mental clarity. In regard to what I said, it might be compatible with a "kamma field", whatever that is (sounds like substance metaphysics to me) but it certainly doesn't need it, meaning your theory of a "kamma field" is superfluous.

Neither of these ideas have any relation to what is being discussed...

Stop trying to introduce strawman and inaccurate terms like 'substance theory' for something you dont understand and doesn't fit with your darwinian dhamma theories.

You are arguing that kamma should be viewed through the lens of Platonic forms. Plato's theories of Forms is a form of substance metaphysics. You don't seem to understand what it is you are arguing for. You also don't seem to understand my position. Nowhere have I made an argument for a "darwinian dhamma theory"

At a deep level of physics it becomes metaphysics.
And his theory in any case is actually Platonic physics on a physical level.

Not really. One other thing, as I said I really do think you could benefit from properly practicing sense restraint. Part of sense restraint is to not follow pleasing or displeasing ideas. That should help diminish this tendency you have towards philosophical flights of fancy, as well as the drug use (I imagine the two are also connected).

[AlexBrains92]

I understand the Buddha's teaching as pragmatic and experientially oriented, to use the same words of Noa Ronkin in 'Early Buddhist Metaphysics':
https://ahandfulofleaves.files.wordpres ... xVX2pn3xM-

[Coëmgenu]

Why does karma need to either be a field or arise out of a field of potentiality? Karma can be utterly immaterial, then it doesn't need to physically or energetically arise out of a field.

This field business sounds like it's inspired by quantum field theory.

[cappuccino]

My understanding is that you condition your mind


Then something is likely


That’s why you should practice …


You should also be careful with words