Samanera without dependence?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
User13866
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Samanera without dependence?

Post by User13866 »

Apparently some novices live without dependence on a bhikkhu.

How are we to think about this?
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retrofuturist
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Re: Samanera without dependence?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Theft from the Juwuls (sic)?

:shrug:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Johann
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Re: Samanera without dependence?

Post by Johann »

Certain with lack of reference, good householder, but why not approaching byāpāda (out of wishing to hold control) with the opposite, metta and some food for release for whom sees prefer in being given all ways:

In regard of the targeted kind, one may be free to think as one likes, feels fit, or knowns. The area is so gray from outside, that it is equal danger. And no scholar will be able to get the area baked.

Generally this "children" of the sages, at least within the tradition, are most careful approached since very voluntary as living often outside any social structure, family, without parents. That's why only a fool would approach even a child in robes in ways without a lot of goodwill, compassion, care and reverence. Independent from social security, one is adviced to regard an even very young Samana, as the most "dangerous" of the four things good to approach with most care, even if small.

But it's a good topic in as far that the Sublime Buddha didn't really wanted his Bhikkhus to live without dependency unless Arahats, or having at least Arahat-like qualities developed, and a long list of additions. If dwelling alone, or without dependency, for meditative practice, such would be wished to have at least developed Samadhi, staying always in "hope" that good fellows would come along.

What about lay people who live without dependency, refuge? What are the dangers of being not really related, not been given, or having been fallen out of refuge? Apparently many are far off the Sangha, never had an instructor, never went for refuge or lost it somewhere, yet carry a lot outwardly?

"The first unknown precept" topic is orphan since years, and really encouraged to not only eager seek for it, real refuge, but also maintain and safeguard it.
Improper conceit, conceit wish isn't eager in trying to follow, by defending house, stand, does the very enemy of surrender, Saddha, and even if Dukkha increases to huge amount, stays blind toward the fourth heavenly messanger.

While certain Brahmans are more then annoyed about getting in touch, meet, or even place under highest regard, it's a blessing for those with eyes, even if just tracing from far and from behind.

Once, as it is natural under those wishing to hold control, a certain Brahman wasn't pleased at all, getting known that the elders have no leader in person since their "Ruler" had left. At that point, getting aware that the Brahma is out of reach, this certain Brahman lost his refuge, as it was incomplete, suddenly. Don't one grasps the idea that he then took "himself, already gained the Dhamma, as an island".

It's good to speak a lot of right refuge (which isn't an idea to take over control over one's refuge-objects, but to fall for it, surrender). So no refugee-right at all. Once claimed, demanded: already fallen out.

It's hard to abound refuge in Mara, his lure and host, but it's possible for some with eyes.

Metta & Mudita

So now back to the question ,to inspire a little more on benefical, in cases one might gain impression one being orphaned, lost dependency, even if seeing ordinary children, ordinary beggar: either support with what ever inspired, starting by the Brahma Viharas, or carefully ask whether any assistance would be seeked or of help.

Sure, if living in the other world, used to wrong view and all kinds of wrong ways, nothing more alarming than to trace something outside "communist" control. Which isn't much different within the Noble Domain, just that the "alarming" isn't approached with byāpāda but naturally with metta, karuna, mudita, upekkha and possible as an occasion to take it as a lesson, out of compassion, before also physical going on.
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Re: Samanera without dependence?

Post by User13866 »

I personally think that a samanera without dependecy basically has no acceptance within the order.

I think there is little to no difference between a rogue samanera and a person who just puts on the robes going forth without full acceptance.
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Johann
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Re: Samanera without dependence?

Post by Johann »

As told before good householder, it's a dangerous area to be neither related not really informed, and puts even praise and blame, take own ideas as ones refuge.

But why should one burden around within families who had gotten the bowl overthrown since a longer. What ever they would get as support, they will use it for their own harm and that of many anyway.

Nothing more of long term unlucky wandering on that corrupted families by trade.

So know the outcast as having left.
Last edited by Johann on Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
dharmacorps
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Re: Samanera without dependence?

Post by dharmacorps »

User13866 wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:56 pm I personally think that a samanera without dependecy basically has no acceptance within the order.

I think there is little to no difference between a rogue samanera and a person who just puts on the robes going forth without full acceptance.
No, there is a difference in those examples, but it is not easy distinction and it is a precarious situation for a novice. There may be some reasons a person cannot or will not get/ pursue higher ordination. Sometimes there are mental illness or personality disturbances, for instance. There may be cases against them.
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Re: Samanera without dependence?

Post by User13866 »

As far as i know there is no disrobing for a samanera. As i understand it, if a novice is much trouble the bhikkhu just sends him away.

I think one without dependence is as if sent away, he can go about finding a new preceptor or do what he wants otherwise but he has no acceptance in the order.

I don't see how this is a grey area...
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Re: Samanera without dependence?

Post by User13866 »

Suppose a samanera just leaves his preceptor right after taking the 10 precepts, goes awol. I think whether the preceptor allows it or not, this is just not something that is acceptable or possible.
Last edited by User13866 on Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
dharmacorps
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Re: Samanera without dependence?

Post by dharmacorps »

User13866 wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:22 am Suppose a samanera just leaves his preceptor right after taking the 10 precepts, goes awol. I think whether the preceptor allows it or not, this is just not something that is acceptable.
Maybe not, but there's nothing you can do about, least of all the preceptor. That's the vinaya, it has some areas where there isn't much enforcement provision. What is the sangha going to do, physically remove the robes from them, even if they do observe the 10 precepts well?
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Re: Samanera without dependence?

Post by SarathW »

Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:
Thus, given the limited opportunities for institutional reform, the only course left open to those few men and women prepared to break the bonds of mainstream Buddhism in their determination to practice is to follow the example of the Buddha himself by engaging in what might be called personal or independent reform: to reject the general values of society, go off on their own, put up with society's disapproval and the hardships of living on the frontier, and search for whatever reliable meditation teachers may be living and practicing outside of the mainstream. If no such teachers exist, individuals intent on practice must strike out on their own, adhering as closely as they can to the teachings in the texts — to keep themselves from being led astray by their own defilements — and taking refuge in the example of the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha in a radical way.

In a sense, there is a sort of folk wisdom to this arrangement. Anyone who would take on the practice only when assured of comfortable material support, status, and praise — which the Buddha called the baits of the world — would probably not be up to the sacrifices and self-discipline the practice inherently entails.
I asked a similar question in very early stages of my path.
Now it is very clear to me it is impossible to be a proper monk without dependence.
Can I become a just a Buddhist Monk without belong to a particular tradition?

This is just a hypothetical question raised based on various issues due to 227 Vinaya rules.
Is it possible to take 9 precepts (handling money is taken away) without a preceptor or teacher and become a monk myself?
This question also raised based on that modern monks do not follow the 227 Vinaya rules according to what they promised when they ordained.
:shrug:
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User13866
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Re: Samanera without dependence?

Post by User13866 »

dharmacorps wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:30 am
User13866 wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:22 am Suppose a samanera just leaves his preceptor right after taking the 10 precepts, goes awol. I think whether the preceptor allows it or not, this is just not something that is acceptable.
Maybe not, but there's nothing you can do about, least of all the preceptor. That's the vinaya, it has some areas where there isn't much enforcement provision. What is the sangha going to do, physically remove the robes from them, even if they do observe the 10 precepts well?
I don't really see a problem needing enforcement.

I do think that anybody can get a set of bowl & robe and go about begging without full acceptance and it's good if they want to do it in general.

However i imagine that in Buddha's time people wearing robes wasn't a big deal as it is now. If one wore a robe and went about begging people wouldn't necessarily think you were gone forth in the Buddhadhamma, nowadays people think you are a fully accepted monk or at least a samanera with dependency gone forth in the Buddhadhamma.

I personally wouldn't do the wearing of robes without a proper dependency exactly because of how it is perceived and how i am not living up to the expectation. Id just wear something else..
SarathW
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Re: Samanera without dependence?

Post by SarathW »

Fake monk: Buddhist crusader catches one on London street.
Wait till the end of the video. He took his robe off.
I hope this is not another fake video.
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User13866
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Re: Samanera without dependence?

Post by User13866 »

I mean Sangha won't generally disrobe anyone. If people even want to pretend to be formally affiliated with the order, maybe they take 5 precepts and put on robes with allowance from a bhikkhu, it's their bussiness if they want to do so, nobody will disrobe them. I think it's a bad idea but apparently nothing is stopping them.
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Re: Samanera without dependence?

Post by Johann »

User13866 wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:14 am As far as i know there is no disrobing for a samanera. As i understand it, if a novice is much trouble the bhikkhu just sends him away.

I think one without dependence is as if sent away, he can go about finding a new preceptor or do what he wants otherwise but he has no acceptance in the order.

I don't see how this is a grey area...
As good householder came a little to mind, Atma will suggest him even a further, much more useful spectulation:

There are Samanas, which have gone proper and declare the Dhamma having seen it for themselves.
As well as there are Samanas,even young Samanas, who had been given independency. Some just formal. Some in all regards. Even some, which have been not recognized as such.

Not only now but also in the past, and at the all Buddhas time.

And in times of decay, they might dwell as near as possible, yet always far from others.
User13866 wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:53 am I mean Sangha won't generally disrobe anyone. If people even want to pretend to be formally affiliated with the order, maybe they take 5 precepts and put on robes with allowance from a bhikkhu, it's their bussiness if they want to do so, nobody will disrobe them. I think it's a bad idea but apparently nothing is stopping them.
Ill-will, even if "just" by a single thought, toward those pure, has huge effects, leads to grave lose.

Wise, to that extend those how can at least relay on often conceitful compassion, like this good householder:
dharmacorps wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:53 pm
User13866 wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:56 pm I personally think that a samanera without dependecy basically has no acceptance within the order.

I think there is little to no difference between a rogue samanera and a person who just puts on the robes going forth without full acceptance.
No, there is a difference in those examples, but it is not easy distinction and it is a precarious situation for a novice. There may be some reasons a person cannot or will not get/ pursue higher ordination. Sometimes there are mental illness or personality disturbances, for instance. There may be cases against them.
Yet, such compassion, based on improper conceit is also better replaced by what gives way to leave home, even if just a minute, and to use such seldom for one in outer lands appearing as a possibility to gain real refuge.

Yours is again encouraged to highly regard of whats common regarded at outcast by your kind, remembering the warnings of the Sublime Buddha well, and good and wise, like everywhere with living tradition, good to bow down even to a 8 years old boy if ever lucky to meet.

Yours really don't need to worry about those really have gone forth, outwarldy inwardly, just good to be smart an use the blessing of touch also to gain Nissaya toward the deathless.

Nobody can help one not related to the Gems or fallen away from it. A wise could, reminded, of course take on the course of right choices but hard, very hard to do.

Good now. Enough burdensome encouraging, and yours owe those who asked for such a lot, like the heirs of this tradition certain Brahmas, Gods. Yours has a lot of duties.
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Re: Samanera without dependence?

Post by User13866 »

I don't care about your situation Johann, i don't think there is any use in talking to you about this.. I think this is interesting only because you are setting an example for people who might think 'what's the use of formal acceptance, nissaya and higher ordination, i am so advanced inwardly, like Arahant or Arahant like, why don't i do like Johann, take 10 precepts and wander off. I will get as much food, cigarettes & veneration as i would otherwise because lay people won't know the difference.'
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