'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

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Cause_and_Effect
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:28 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:14 pm
You didn't answer.

How is that an ayatana, a dhatu and the supreme dhamma , consistent with the use of these terms in the canon?

It isn't.
You can experience it, it’s an element of experience and supreme as it’s free from dukkha.
That's not consistent with the use of these terms.
That's a flagrant warping of their meaning to suit your desire for annihilation of experience.

Nibbana is an ayatana, a base or a dimension.
Like the base of infinite space. It's not simply nothingness.

If your defintion were true, it would be simply the cessation of all bases.

There is no element of nothing. Nothing would be the cessation of all elements.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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cappuccino
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:01 pm Yes.
It’s similar to now, minus stress
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

Life is defined by stress


So, the difference is significant
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:06 pm Life is defined by stress


So, the difference is significant
Yes, and freedom from all dukkha is in the great void.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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cappuccino
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:09 pm Yes, and freedom from dukkha is in the great void.
“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I teach, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86


(No mention of a void)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:10 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:09 pm Yes, and freedom from dukkha is in the great void.
“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I teach, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86


(No mention of a void)
The cessation of all stress, nibbana, is the void.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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cappuccino
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:12 pm The cessation of all stress, nibbana, is the void.
The cessation of all stress = Nirvana

:shrug:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:13 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:12 pm The cessation of all stress, nibbana, is the void.
The cessation of all stress = Nirvana

:shrug:
Yes, and with the total cessation of all of existence there is freedom from any disturbance. That freedom from disturbance is nibbana, where nothing is felt.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:15 pm Yes, and with the total cessation of all of existence there is freedom from any disturbance. That freedom from disturbance is nibbana, where nothing is felt.
K
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

Buddha calls it the end of existence


But this means existence as we know it
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Ceisiwr »

With the extermination of form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness, that bhikkhu, resolving thus: ‘It might not be, and it might not be for me; it will not be, and it will not be for me,’ can cut off the lower fetters.”

“Resolving thus, venerable sir, a bhikkhu can cut off the lower fetters. But how should one know, how should one see, for the immediate destruction of the taints to occur?”

“Here, bhikkhu, the uninstructed worldling becomes frightened over an unfrightening matter. For this is frightening to the uninstructed worldling: ‘It might not be, and it might not be for me; it will not be, and it will not be for me.’ But the instructed noble disciple does not become frightened over an unfrightening matter. For this is not frightening to the noble disciple: ‘It might not be, and it might not be for me; it will not be, and it will not be for me.’
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.55/en/bod ... ight=false

:smile:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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cappuccino
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:20 pm For this is not frightening to the noble disciple: ‘It might not be, and it might not be for me; it will not be, and it will not be for me.’
Because it doesn’t apply


That’s not the same as annihilation
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:21 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:20 pm For this is not frightening to the noble disciple: ‘It might not be, and it might not be for me; it will not be, and it will not be for me.’
Because it doesn’t apply


That’s not the same as annihilation
It says “it will not be”. It’s referring to the extermination of the aggregates and the end of existence. Fools find it terrifying, and through their craving they are reborn. The wise see the cessation as blissful, and so are extinguished.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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cappuccino
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:24 pm It says “it will not be”. It’s referring to the extermination of the aggregates and the end of existence.
Actually it’s talking about the idea of annihilation


And even such an idea does not apply
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:24 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:24 pm It says “it will not be”. It’s referring to the extermination of the aggregates and the end of existence. Fools find it terrifying, and through their craving they are reborn. The wise see the cessation as blissful, and so are extinguished.
Actually it’s talking about the idea of annihilation


And even such an idea does not apply
No. It’s the Buddhas adaptation of the annihilationist mantra. Instead of “I will not be” it’s “it will not be”.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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