'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Spiny Norman
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:08 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:42 am
auto wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:58 pm
interrupting this convo for a sec, i might see it wrongly, but it truly seem like it that,
Ceiswir you are getting lost from the first line what user Cause and effect posted and just carrying on with your usual narrative.
What said to you is:
You think nibbana is annihilation. Therefore you are an annihilationist.
Nibbana is about cessation, not about eternal life.
Again, you are muddling up Buddhist and Hindu teachings, and missing the point.
He throws Christian Theism into the blender too.
Buddha save me from new-agers. :jumping:
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:14 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:08 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:42 am

Nibbana is about cessation, not about eternal life.
Again, you are muddling up Buddhist and Hindu teachings, and missing the point.
He throws Christian Theism into the blender too.
Buddha save me from new-agers. :jumping:
:jumping:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
auto
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by auto »

Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:42 am Nibbana is about cessation, not about eternal life.
Again, you are muddling up Buddhist and Hindu teachings, and missing the point.
Nibbana is final cessation of dhamma what originates from desire(chanda). I said it before with a Sutta quote, and will do it again,
https://suttacentral.net/an10.58/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:‘Reverends, all things are rooted in desire... And extinguishment is their final end.’
When you are saying sabbe dhamma anatta, you think it is refuting atman. That's the only context you have..
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Spiny Norman »

auto wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:58 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:42 am Nibbana is about cessation, not about eternal life.
Again, you are muddling up Buddhist and Hindu teachings, and missing the point.
Nibbana is final cessation of dhamma what originates from desire(chanda). I said it before with a Sutta quote, and will do it again,
https://suttacentral.net/an10.58/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:‘Reverends, all things are rooted in desire... And extinguishment is their final end.’
When you are saying sabbe dhamma anatta, you think it is refuting atman. That's the only context you have..
Nibbana is the cessation of craving, aversion and ignorance. It's not Atman.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
auto
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by auto »

Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:12 pm
auto wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:58 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:42 am Nibbana is about cessation, not about eternal life.
Again, you are muddling up Buddhist and Hindu teachings, and missing the point.
Nibbana is final cessation of dhamma what originates from desire(chanda). I said it before with a Sutta quote, and will do it again,
https://suttacentral.net/an10.58/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:‘Reverends, all things are rooted in desire... And extinguishment is their final end.’
When you are saying sabbe dhamma anatta, you think it is refuting atman. That's the only context you have..
Nibbana is the cessation of craving, aversion and ignorance. It's not Atman.
why it would be atman? why do you suggest that option at all?
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cappuccino
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:13 pm
cappuccino wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:37 am Paradox…
No, just a lack of clarity on your part.
It is the Unformed, the Unconditioned, the End,
the Truth, the Other Shore, the Subtle,
the Everlasting, the Invisible, the Undiversified,
Peace, the Deathless, the Blest, Safety,
the Wonderful, the Marvellous,
Nibbæna, Purity, Freedom,
the Island,
the Refuge, the Beyond.
~ S 43.1-44
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Spiny Norman »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:41 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:13 pm
cappuccino wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:37 am Paradox…
No, just a lack of clarity on your part.
It is the Unformed, the Unconditioned, the End,
the Truth, the Other Shore, the Subtle,
the Everlasting, the Invisible, the Undiversified,
Peace, the Deathless, the Blest, Safety,
the Wonderful, the Marvellous,
Nibbæna, Purity, Freedom,
the Island,
the Refuge, the Beyond.
~ S 43.1-44
You seem attached to an eternalist view.

What Pali term is translated as "everlasting" in the quote above?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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cappuccino
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:46 pm You seem attached to an eternalist view.
Eternalism is not about eternity


It’s about a self that stays the same in each incarnation


No I do not have this view
Last edited by cappuccino on Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Spiny Norman
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Spiny Norman »

auto wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:19 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:12 pm
auto wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:58 pm
Nibbana is final cessation of dhamma what originates from desire(chanda). I said it before with a Sutta quote, and will do it again,

When you are saying sabbe dhamma anatta, you think it is refuting atman. That's the only context you have..
Nibbana is the cessation of craving, aversion and ignorance. It's not Atman.
why it would be atman? why do you suggest that option at all?
You have just claimed that Nibbana equals Brahman. But Atman equals Brahman, so you're also saying that Nibbana equals Atman.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Spiny Norman
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Spiny Norman »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:48 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:46 pm You seem attached to an eternalist view.
Eternalism is not about eternity
It’s about a self that stays the same in each incarnation
No I do not have this view
So what view do you have, exactly?
Please explain it clearly.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by auto »

Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:49 pm
auto wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:19 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:12 pm

Nibbana is the cessation of craving, aversion and ignorance. It's not Atman.
why it would be atman? why do you suggest that option at all?
You have just claimed that Nibbana equals Brahman. But Atman equals Brahman, so you're also saying that Nibbana equals Atman.
where did i said that? i think i said attaining brahman.
..
with that you reminded me a serious matter. you actually need attain soul so yes you don't have one if you haven't attained it yet.
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:52 pm So what view do you have, exactly?
Please explain it clearly.
The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic

"Now, what is impermanent, unsatisfactory, subject to change, is it proper to regard it as: 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self'?"

"Indeed, not that, O Lord."

"Therefore, surely, O monks, whatever form, past, future or present, internal or external, coarse or fine, low or lofty, far or near, all that form must be regarded with proper wisdom, according to reality, thus: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.'
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by auto »

pretty sure naysayers will not going to say: "oh i were wrong, i am now going to practice realize immediate presence?" etc.
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Spiny Norman »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:55 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:52 pm So what view do you have, exactly?
Please explain it clearly.
The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic

"Now, what is impermanent, unsatisfactory, subject to change, is it proper to regard it as: 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self'?"

"Indeed, not that, O Lord."

"Therefore, surely, O monks, whatever form, past, future or present, internal or external, coarse or fine, low or lofty, far or near, all that form must be regarded with proper wisdom, according to reality, thus: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.'
Please answer my question in a straightforward way.
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cappuccino
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:04 pm Please answer my question in a straightforward way.
Not Self … Not No Self
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