'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cappuccino
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:25 pm No.
When that consciousness is unestablished … it is liberated. By being liberated, it is steady; by being steady, it is content; by being content, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he personally attains Nibbāna. He understands: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.’

22.55. Inspired Utterance
pegembara
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by pegembara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:58 pm
cappuccino wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:57 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:56 pm

Yes.
And that is not nirvana
Nibbana is not found in annihilationism, no.
"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."

Do you continue to exist "somewhere" else or your journey ends here? That is the question. Like the Schrodinger's cat. :)
Or what you see is what you get. Keep looking and you will keep finding or stop?
"What lies on the other side of Unbinding?"

"You've gone too far, friend Visakha. You can't keep holding on up to the limit of questions. For the holy life gains a footing in Unbinding, culminates in Unbinding, has Unbinding as its final end. If you wish, go to the Blessed One and ask him the meaning of these things. Whatever he says, that's how you should remember it."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

the holy life gains a footing in Unbinding, culminates in Unbinding, has Unbinding as its final end.
pegembara
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by pegembara »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:47 am the holy life gains a footing in Unbinding, culminates in Unbinding, has Unbinding as its final end.
As a Buddhist, there should not be any issue with this goal. Should there? :toast:
Buddha calls it the end of existence
But this means existence as we know it
There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tends to be the difficult ones.

Nibbana would fall under the category of known unknown but before the Buddha, it would have been unknown unknown.
The question is how does one know it?

https://archive.org/details/AmathaGaves ... e_Base.mp3
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

pegembara wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:00 am
cappuccino wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:47 am the holy life gains a footing in Unbinding, culminates in Unbinding, has Unbinding as its final end.
As a Buddhist, there should not be any issue with this goal. Should there?
Different for lay people than monks
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:25 pm
cappuccino wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:24 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:24 pm It says “it will not be”. It’s referring to the extermination of the aggregates and the end of existence. Fools find it terrifying, and through their craving they are reborn. The wise see the cessation as blissful, and so are extinguished.
Actually it’s talking about the idea of annihilation


And even such an idea does not apply
No. It’s the Buddhas adaptation of the annihilationist mantra. Instead of “I will not be” it’s “it will not be”.
It's amazing how attached you are and how fervently you argue for your annihilationist and exterminationist beliefs, and how much you identify with the aggregates.
It's a compulsive desire you have for non-existance. It's not healthy, not to speak of misrepresentation of the goal. You want nibbana to be 'the great and final everlasting death' instead of 'the deathless'.

Nibbana is an ayatana - a sphere or plane. There is no freedom in nothingness.

The Island, the shelter, the base that arahants merge into. All synonyms of that reality.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:43 pm It's amazing how attached you are and how fervently you argue for your annihilationist and exterminationist beliefs, and how much you identify with the aggregates.
It's a compulsive desire you have for non-existance. It's not healthy, not to speak of misrepresentation of the goal. You want nibbana to be 'the great and final everlasting death' instead of 'the deathless'.
But "the deathless" is a synonym for Nibbana, and Nibbana is a living experience.
And of course the craving for continued existence leads some people to imagine that Nibbana leads to some version of eternal life.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by auto »

Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:41 am But "the deathless" is a synonym for Nibbana, and Nibbana is a living experience.
And of course the craving for continued existence leads some people to imagine that Nibbana leads to some version of eternal life.
deathless - amato.
nibbana is a thing on its own. At least that different they deserve both mentioning.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.58/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:.. They culminate in the deathless. And extinguishment is their final end.’
..amatogadhā sabbe dhammā, nibbānapariyosānā sabbe dhammā’ti.
and to note is that the sabbe dhamma is desire(chanda) rooted.
wrote:‘Reverends, all things are rooted in desire. ..
‘chandamūlakā, āvuso, sabbe dhammā, ..
guess:
As you can see that the haddaya vatthu isn't mentioned here, which is necessary to jhana. Otherwords when dhamma ceases, then it's time for jhana.
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by auto »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:24 pm
Microdose wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:11 pm Viññanam anidassanam

Consciousness without surface

I have experiences of this, where I feel free, my mind is not landing on thoughts

There is expansion

Words can’t fully describe this

It is whole and complete , nothing is lacking, it was and is the most natural experience

Mind is quite tricky so it comes back and covers it just as a cloud covers the sun

But once experienced one always knows that the sun is behind the clouds even if it’s a cloudy day

It’s unmistakable clarity and brings it’s own authority
Yes, you know.
Explaining it to people who don't is difficult and they will try to find rationalisms to support their false notions.
Becoming aware, like waking up from a dream, to the reality where the body is. The waking state. Feels like connecting to the power source, but it grows stale fast and won't stop there, it gets worse and worse. So, i don't agree on the notion of mind coming back and pooping the party, rather its the absence of sense pleasure what ruins it, and one willingly submits to the pleasure, because of some reasons like i have practiced enough, it's raining, oh the bell rang etc

ah maybe you mean the awareness going on and off. Off state can be aware of. More precise, it is black mental object. Which at first is blackout experience. I'm keeping an open mind on it.
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by auto »

I think awareness is a blanket term, just to point out. Like lucid dream, we know what it is, but if people describe it, then differences appear. But the general notion is recogniseable.
Perhaps consciousness is same. We know what it is, it is what knows feelings. Random person from street can know it, but it's not the same with buddha knowing, despite what they think is the same.

I think it is possible to think and do wrong things but do and think them correctly and progress still happen. Vice versa
Last edited by auto on Sat Oct 01, 2022 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:43 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:25 pm
cappuccino wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:24 pm

Actually it’s talking about the idea of annihilation


And even such an idea does not apply
No. It’s the Buddhas adaptation of the annihilationist mantra. Instead of “I will not be” it’s “it will not be”.
It's amazing how attached you are and how fervently you argue for your annihilationist and exterminationist beliefs,
Please desist in referring to Classical Theravāda as Ceisiwr's personal attachments, beliefs, and/or theories. He's not that fancy. Only in your mind does he occupy such a prestigious position. Because you are so ignorant of Theravādin doctrine and history, you wrongly misrepresent him as if he was the personification of the entire Mahāvihāra and came up with "Classical Theravāda" and "Mainstream Historical Śrāvaka Buddhism" one day while musing upon annihilation.

Your critiques of Śrāvaka Buddhism could easily come from a medieval Vedānta anti-Buddhist tract. Hindus and Mahāyānists have been complaining about and polemicizing against these things long before you came along, coupled as you are with your insufficient understanding and second-rate version of their critiques.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 3:38 pm ~
Since you like wading in from the sidelines why don't you clarify your position on nibbana according to the nikayas? (I'm not asking for any particular schools 'orthodox' position but what you think the Buddha of the nikayas was referring to when describing nibbana).

Also as I have said, my views come from experience which is why they have a conviction about them whether or not I express them particularly well.
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"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Coëmgenu »

What a literal child. Please grow up. I've spoke to you several times and you've declined to engage with any of the relevant material, clarifications of errors you've made, and counterpoints I've raised to your various mistakes, eccentric views, and misconceived theses. Then, when one of my corrections finally "triggers" you, you attack me for allegedly being "triggered."

This has been the pattern with you on several different threads now.

As to your request for my personal exegesis, my personal position is irrelevant here. Why?

This is a forum for Theravāda Buddhism. If you don't like it, you should probably stop posting here.

Also, you should read the thread better. I've already been asked this question and I've already given a similar answer.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Cause_and_Effect
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Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:39 am

Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:01 pm As to your request for my personal exegesis, my personal position is irrelevant here. Why?
Im not asking for your personal view, I'm asking for what you think the nikayas say about nibbana since that is the topic. If you have hinted at it before you can state it more clearly.
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:01 pm This is a forum for Theravāda Buddhism. If you don't like it, you should probably stop posting here.
A typically petulant response from you.
And to clarify, yes this is a thread on Theravada. Not 'what I think is orthodox Theravada only'.

Theravada - orthodox, unorthodox, or just nikayas based Buddhism.

Why don't you take time to contemplate that if you've been here for how ever many years and not understood it yet.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:31 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:01 pm As to your request for my personal exegesis, my personal position is irrelevant here. Why?
Im not asking for your personal view, I'm asking for what you think the nikayas say about nibbana since that is the topic.
They don't say that "citta is forever" and they don't say "there is a universal proto-conscious (or karmic) field." They say that Nibbāna is cessation. Cut, dried, and simple. Other texts say other things. The Pāli Canon says that what will arise will cease. Citta arose. Vijñāna arose. Manas arose. They will cease forever, never to re-arise again. Last time I pointed this out, you proverbially hid under a proverbial rock and said nothing other an eventual exhaustive re-iteration of your theories concerning the Dhamma.
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:01 pm This is a forum for Theravāda Buddhism. If you don't like it, you should probably stop posting here.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:31 pmA typically petulant response from you.
And to clarify, yes this is a thread on Theravada. Not 'what I think is orthodox Theravada only'.
Nope, it's a "Cause_and_Effect plays pretend concerning the contents of the suttas" thread. It's a "Cause_and_Effect calls Theravāda annihilation" thread. It's a "Cause_and_Effect doesn't know the difference between Theravāda and Ceisiwr's personal exegesis" thread.

I'm here to discuss Theravāda, the EBTs, and Śrāvaka Buddhism in general. You're here to discuss the unconditioned citta, to advocate breaking the precepts in order to attain chemically-induced samādhis, and insult Theravāda. Reconsider who would be wise to leave and who doesn't understand what "Theravāda" actually is.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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