'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
pegembara
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by pegembara »

justindesilva wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:45 am
pegembara wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:32 am If one sees the ending of the world, one will never say the world truly exists.
If one sees the arising of the world, one will not say the world doesn't truly exists.

What is the world?
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
When consciousness doesn't land on anything, nothing else can be said. Eternalism or annihilation doesn't apply.

If you were the sun and your light lands on nothing, the experience is the same as the light going out even though the sun may still be burning.
Whether the sun still burns or not changes nothing for you. If you see the sun, it means the light has just landed on a mirror!
Consciousness or vingnana is a state of burning ignition and or combust, but niravana called a state of coolness does not help ignition, as it is also a fire without a surface or flames. Desire or tanha is the cause of ignition or flames. This is what the suttas culs vedalla or aditya paryaya explain.
It is best to understand the root or basics of a subject .
Yes. All is aflame. The All cannot be separated from vinnana. Nibbana is when the lights go out.
When the light of consciousness lands on nothing the light goes out.
There is no contention here.

What some suggest is that there is still some kind of "consciousness" that doesn't light things up. My suggestion is what does it matter? The experience is the same ie. flames go out as you put it. Nothing else need to be said like 'Is there anything else after this?"

If you suggest that you experience "consciousness" that is like putting a mirror in front in which case the light still falls on the mirror. That is not the nibbana that the Buddha spoke of.
Last edited by pegembara on Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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cappuccino
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

pegembara wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:02 am Nibbana is when the lights go out.
This is not a description of Nirvana
pegembara
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by pegembara »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:09 am
pegembara wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:02 am Nibbana is when the lights go out.
This is not a description of Nirvana
“Just as, Assaji, an oil lamp burns in dependence on the oil and the wick, and with the exhaustion of the oil and the wick it is extinguished through lack of fuel, so too, Assaji, when a bhikkhu feels a feeling terminating with the body … terminating with life … He understands: ‘With the breakup of the body, following the exhaustion of life, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here.’”

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.88/en/bod ... ight=false
“Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant … completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.
But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Show me anywhere that says differently.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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cappuccino
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

pegembara wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:17 am following the exhaustion of life, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here.

Show me anywhere that says differently.
That’s correct, it’s not simply turning off

:meditate:
pegembara
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by pegembara »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:36 am
pegembara wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:17 am following the exhaustion of life, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here.

Show me anywhere that says differently.
That’s correct, it’s not simply turning off

:meditate:
Err..okay
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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cappuccino
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

pegembara wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:42 am Err… okay
Is meditation simply turning off a light…


Or peaceful, even blissful
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by pegembara »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:44 am
pegembara wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:42 am Err… okay
Is meditation simply turning off a light…
Is that your experience? Refer to Cullavedalla sutta.
Light goes out is just a metaphorical expression, not meant to be taken so literally. :smile:
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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cappuccino
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

pegembara wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:57 am Light goes out is just a metaphorical expression, not meant to be taken so literally.
K…
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Pondera »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:09 am
pegembara wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:02 am Nibbana is when the lights go out.
This is not a description of Nirvana

Lights stay on. Mind goes out. Mind stops assimilating.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
justindesilva
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by justindesilva »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:05 am
pegembara wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:57 am Light goes out is just a metaphorical expression, not meant to be taken so literally.
K…
Lord budda too used such metaphor. Eg Andakara sutta. When lord budda says about darkness of the cosmos void where no light from the sun or moon falls , he is questioned by a bikku whether there is any darkness more fearfull. In return lord budda answers that there is and that is stress , not knowing the stress, and the reason for sress with not knowing how to overcome the stress and in short that avidya is such darkness. He from the sutta explains the darkness is followed by paticcasamuppada ending in stress, dukka, domanassa, jara marana ( ,my interpretation to make it short).
See the meaning of darkness as referred to by lord budda, against light of sun and moon.
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Pondera wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:23 am
cappuccino wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:09 am
pegembara wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:02 am Nibbana is when the lights go out.
This is not a description of Nirvana

Lights stay on. Mind goes out. Mind stops assimilating.
I don't think the mind "goes out". It's more like the mind is freed from craving, aversion and delusion.

And what do you mean when you say the mind stops "assimilating"? Could you elaborate on this?
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Pondera »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:43 am
Pondera wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:23 am
cappuccino wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:09 am

This is not a description of Nirvana

Lights stay on. Mind goes out. Mind stops assimilating.
I don't think the mind "goes out". It's more like the mind is freed from craving, aversion and delusion.

And what do you mean when you say the mind stops "assimilating"? Could you elaborate on this?
I can. “Grasping”. The mind discontinues grasping and sense perception. This is “restraint”. This is the gateway to correcting kamma.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Pondera wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:02 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:43 am
Pondera wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:23 am


Lights stay on. Mind goes out. Mind stops assimilating.
I don't think the mind "goes out". It's more like the mind is freed from craving, aversion and delusion.

And what do you mean when you say the mind stops "assimilating"? Could you elaborate on this?
I can. “Grasping”. The mind discontinues grasping and sense perception. This is “restraint”. This is the gateway to correcting kamma.
Cessation of grasping makes sense, but how would one function without sense-perception?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Pondera
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Pondera »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:32 am
Pondera wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:02 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:43 am

I don't think the mind "goes out". It's more like the mind is freed from craving, aversion and delusion.

And what do you mean when you say the mind stops "assimilating"? Could you elaborate on this?
I can. “Grasping”. The mind discontinues grasping and sense perception. This is “restraint”. This is the gateway to correcting kamma.
Cessation of grasping makes sense, but how would one function without sense-perception?
Perfectly fine. Well. I was letting go off eye perception when I almost got into an accident on the road. But I expect that if we leave it up to the monks, we shan’t be seeing them walk off cliffs.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Pondera wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:51 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:32 am
Pondera wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:02 am

I can. “Grasping”. The mind discontinues grasping and sense perception. This is “restraint”. This is the gateway to correcting kamma.
Cessation of grasping makes sense, but how would one function without sense-perception?
Perfectly fine. Well. I was letting go off eye perception when I almost got into an accident on the road. But I expect that if we leave it up to the monks, we shan’t be seeing them walk off cliffs.
It appears from the suttas that the aggregates are still present for the Arahant, which would include sense-consciousness (vinnana).
So it's grasping and identification which have ceased for the Arahant.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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