'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:16 pm I also see some indications in modern physics so it's all good.
I'd be cautious with looking for confirmation of one's views in science. Science changes. What you think supports your views today can be gone tomorrow.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:25 pm
Since you have equated this eternal "proto-conciousness" with nibbāna I guess you are making a claim of some level of realisation here. May I ask, did you experience this whilst high on LSD? If you did, you might consider being a bit sceptical of it.
No, I am not claiming nibbana don't misconstrue what I said. I am far far from being free from defilements.
I don't equate the underlying field of awareness with nibbana unless it is liberated from re-becoming of nama-rupa.
Otherwise it simply reflects the consciousness element of reality, or the shared protoconscious field may be a better way to put it, that is part of the fabric of reality.

Regarding your mentioning of LSD it's clear you want to discredit what I am saying based in previously saying I have used it.
However my jhana practice is based on the methods of Ajahn Lee.

Whether I may or may not have had experiential insight into the protoconscious field through an expanded or deeper state attained through any means, the sense of this awareness has remained after any such states of consciousness passed, so the insight is now to an extent a 'permanent' change in experience and being in touch with it.
Like I said I see validation of it through multiple angles including the suttas.
Last edited by Cause_and_Effect on Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:47 pm you don't know my views.
Are you trying to achieve nirvana?
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings cappuccino,
cappuccino wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:59 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:15 am
cappuccino wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:22 pm No self is annihilationism
No it's not. Annihilationism involves destroying something that exists.
I’m aware of that interpretation
It's not just "interpretation"... it's the English language. What do you think the word "annihilate" means? Can you "annihilate" what doesn't exist?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:38 pm It's not just "interpretation"... it's the English language. What do you think the word "annihilate" means? Can you "annihilate" what doesn't exist?
It seems valid …

But do you really not exist?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:37 pm
No, I am not claiming nibbana don't misconstrue what I said. I am far far from being free from defilements.
I don't equate the underlying field of awareness with nibbana unless it is liberated from re-becoming of nama-rupa.
Otherwise it simply reflects the consciousness element of reality, or the shared protoconscious field may be a better way to put it, that is part of the fabric of reality.

Regarding your mentioning of LSD it's clear you want to discredit what I am saying based in previously saying I have used it.
However my jhana practice is based on the methods of Ajahn Lee.
Well, you have argued that this eternal citta is nibbāna. You also just said you have experienced it. That would mean you have experienced nibbāna, and so would be at some level of awakening. Have you experienced it or not? I'd also like to know how an eternal and unchanging citta takes part in rebirth? How can it be liberated, if it is unchanging? If it is defiled and then not defiled, it has changed. If it partakes in rebirth, it changes. Regarding LSD, it was a genuine question. I wondered if you were possibly making the mistake of viewing drug induced experiences with genuine insight in terms of Buddhadhamma. I'm very glad though if you have stopped this, and are now instead practicing virtue and sense restraint with a view of Jhāna.
Whether I may or may not have had experiential insight into the protoconscious field through an expanded or deeper state attained through any means, the sense of this awareness has remained after any such states of consciousness passed, so the insight is now to an extent a 'permanent' change in experience and being in touch with it.
Like I said I see validation of it through multiple angles including the suttas.
Is it an insight, or is it that your mind isn't developed enough to see it's arising and ceasing? Something to think over.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:16 pmI spend little to no time thinking anything about you and that's not going to change no matter how many silly emojis you want to post.
Whether you premeditate upon your various misrepresentations of me that you post here or not, their uniquitous presence betrays your words here.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:47 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:37 pm
No, I am not claiming nibbana don't misconstrue what I said. I am far far from being free from defilements.
I don't equate the underlying field of awareness with nibbana unless it is liberated from re-becoming of nama-rupa.
Otherwise it simply reflects the consciousness element of reality, or the shared protoconscious field may be a better way to put it, that is part of the fabric of reality.

Regarding your mentioning of LSD it's clear you want to discredit what I am saying based in previously saying I have used it.
However my jhana practice is based on the methods of Ajahn Lee.
Well, you have argued that this eternal citta is nibbāna. You also just said you have experienced it. That would mean you have experienced nibbāna, and so would be at some level of awakening. Have you experienced it or not?
I have argued that all beings including you are part of a larger 'protoconscious' field of witnessing from an infinite number of unique locus of experience. I haven't called it an 'eternal citta' as though it's some kind of entity, it's a participatory field that each individual can liberate. I have had insight into its nature and the mechanics of it that doesn't mean I have liberated it.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:47 pm I'd also like to know how an eternal and unchanging citta takes part in rebirth? How can it be liberated, if it is unchanging? If it is defiled and then not defiled, it has changed. If it partakes in rebirth, it changes.
You have it the wrong way around and thats the problem with logical inference as a method. You wont deduce an answer. The nama-rupa and aggregates arise around the witnessing aspect of this field is the best I can describe it.

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:47 pm Regarding LSD, it was a genuine question. I wondered if you were possibly making the mistake of viewing drug induced experiences with genuine insight in terms of Buddhadhamma. I'm very glad though if you have stopped this, and are now instead practicing virtue and sense restraint with a view of Jhāna.
This is another, complex topic and this is neither the place nor you the person to be discussing it with. I would say that I don't find these methods mutually exclusive on the contrary they can be reinforcing of the spiritual practice for some if used rightly and some research supports this.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Pondera
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:42 am
Pondera wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:20 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 6:45 am

Though "Anything you might take as a self, isn't" still sounds like a view, or a position to be adopted, or even a strategy. A position taken to challenge, for example, the view that self is consciousness.
I’d personally like to remain unconscious for eternity after I die, but, according to DN 1, this is a wrong view.

Does the Tathagata exist after death? Doesn’t apply.

Does the Tathagata not exist after death? Doesn’t apply.

Does the Tathagata both exist and not exist after death? DOESN’T APPLY. JEEZE - I’m starting to sound like a broken record.

Does the Tathagata neither exist nor not exist after death? LOOK BUD. ONE MORE QUESTION ABOUT THE NATURE OF THE TATHAGATA AFTER DEATH AND I’LL HAVE A YAKKA SMASH YOUR SKULL INTO A MILLION PIECES WITH A THUNDER BOLT.

Point is - hard to say. So how about we stop wondering and get on with jhana?
It’s more those questions do not apply because there is no self. By asking them, the individual is really asking “Will I exist or not when there is nibbana”.
Your framing the concept of “no self” in such a way that you might as well just say “the self does not exist anywhere in anything”. So, you’re missing the point. Non-existence doesn’t apply.

Regardless of what has self or does not have self the point of the questions is to say “can I objectify Nibbana?”

And you can’t. It’s beyond the scope of definition.

If it was as you say, we could ask:

Is there a self?
Is there not a self?
Is the both a self and not a self?
Is there neither a self nor not a self?

So a) you’ve missed the answer to the exercise of the concept of not-self and b) you’ve missed the answer of the exercise of “can we conceptualize and express the nature of Nibbana?”
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:33 pm
As you say, those are questions about what happens after death. A non-existing thing doesn’t live forever nor is it destroyed. Existence and non-existence then do not apply. Existence and non-existence do not apply to the Flying Spaghetti Monster when it dies, because there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Technically, it's is a nonexistent thing, why doesn't nonexistence apply?

Māra's advocacy!
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:53 pm Technically, it's is a nonexistent thing, why doesn't nonexistence apply?

Māra's advocacy!
The framing of the question is based on the idea that the Buddha exists now, so will he when he dies. A self which exists and then is destroyed, or a self which exists and continues to exist. Neither apply, because there never was anything to begin with.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:01 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:53 pm Technically, it's is a nonexistent thing, why doesn't nonexistence apply?

Māra's advocacy!
The framing of the question is based on the idea that the Buddha exists now, so will he when he dies. A self which exists and then is destroyed, or a self which exists and continues to exist. Neither apply, because there never was anything to begin with.
Well, if he doesn't exist now, he surely won't in the future either. Take another nonexistent thing, the Invisible Pink Unicorn. It doesn't exist now, and also won't in the future.

This sort of thing can go on ad infinitum. It's the bread and butter of those who want to twist the Buddha to agree with them. He doesn't not exist, and he doesn't exist either. All ātmavādas of those who wrongly call themselves Buddhists hinge upon this "doesn't not exist."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:01 pm Neither apply, because there never was anything to begin with.
In theory but not actually


The problem of no self
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:15 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:01 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:53 pm Technically, it's is a nonexistent thing, why doesn't nonexistence apply?

Māra's advocacy!
The framing of the question is based on the idea that the Buddha exists now, so will he when he dies. A self which exists and then is destroyed, or a self which exists and continues to exist. Neither apply, because there never was anything to begin with.
Well, if he doesn't exist now, he surely won't in the future either. Take another nonexistent thing, the Invisible Pink Unicorn. It doesn't exist now, and also won't in the future.

This sort of thing can go on ad infinitum. It's the bread and butter of those who want to twist the Buddha to agree with them. He doesn't not exist, and he doesn't exist either. All ātmavādas of those who wrongly call themselves Buddhists hinge upon this "doesn't not exist."
I agree.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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