'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

[Ceisiwr]

You don't know what the 'mind' and 'consciousness' are. You are stuck on mere concepts.
As he described, the awareness doesn't go away. It can't go away because it is reality itself.

It can't go away, or the mind just isn't trained enough to see it's cessation?

As he described, the awareness doesn't go away. It can't go away because it is reality itself.

I thought we couldn't say what nibbāna is?

[cappuccino]

I thought we couldn't say what nibbāna is?

the final dimension…

“There is that sphere where there is no earth, no water, no fire nor wind; no sphere of infinity of space, of infinity of consciousness, of nothingness or even of neither-perception-nor non-perception; there, there is neither this world nor the other world, neither moon nor sun; this sphere I call neither a coming nor a going nor a staying still, neither a dying nor a reappearance; it has no basis, no evolution and no support: this, just this, is the end of dukkha.”
~ Ud 8.1

[Ceisiwr]

I thought we couldn't say what nibbāna is?

the final dimension…

“There is that sphere where there is no earth, no water, no fire nor wind; no sphere of infinity of space, of infinity of consciousness, of nothingness or even of neither-perception-nor non-perception; there, there is neither this world nor the other world, neither moon nor sun; this sphere I call neither a coming nor a going nor a staying still, neither a dying nor a reappearance; it has no basis, no evolution and no support: this, just this, is the end of dukkha.”
~ Ud 8.1

Hmm, almost as if it's totally void.

[cappuccino]

Hmm, almost as if it's totally void.

Almost, close

[DNS]

Smells like an oxymoron.

Smells like teen spirit

The lights are on, but you're not home.

(Robert Palmer song)
(sorry, couldn't resist)

[pegembara]

Yes. All is aflame. The All cannot be separated from vinnana. Nibbana is when the lights go out.

When the light of consciousness lands on nothing the light goes out.

There is no contention here.

What you mean to say in red is that when the light of consciousness doesn’t land on anything, it gives an impression that the light is off…..but it’s always on.

Furthermore, If the lights were off, that would contradict the 3 characteristics of the unconditioned.

"Bhikkhus, there are these three
characteristics that define the
unconditioned. What three? No arising is
seen, no vanishing is seen, and no
alteration while it persists is seen. These
are the three characteristics that define the
unconditioned."

This should raise some interesting questions…..

When the light falls on nothing, you can neither say the sun is still burning or has burned out. The experience is the same regardless of whether the light is on or off. What can be known is the unconditioned. What happens to the sun itself cannot be known. It lies beyond range as they say.
@cappucino - It is certainly not annihilation.

But if the light still lands on something, the story isn't over.

"Can you see your own eyes?" Nobody can see their own eyes. I can see your eyes but I can't see my eyes. I'm sitting right here, I've got two eyes and I can't see them. But you can see my eyes. But there's no need for me to see my eyes because 1 can see! It's ridiculous, isn't it? If I started saying "Why can't I see my own eyes?" you'd think "Ajahn Sumedho's really weird, isn't he!" Looking in a mirror you can see a reflection, but that's not your eyes, it's a reflection of your eyes. There's no way that I've been able to look and see my own eyes, but then it's not necessary to see your own eyes. It's not necessary to know who it is that knows-because there's knowing. And then you start creating views about who is it that knows, then you start the avijja paccaya sankhara and on through the whole thing again to despair and anguish.

Q: How would you describe the nature of the pure mind?

A: This is where the Buddha was very careful, because when you're trying to describe the indescribable, or define the indefinable, or limit the unlimited, you can get yourself into a lot of delusion. The only thing I can say is that as you let go of things more and more, and realize that all that arises ceases - you realize the cessation of things - then you realize the Unconditioned.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Ajah ... n_Time.htm

[cappuccino]

@cappucino - It is certainly not annihilation.

yeah…


being reborn as a bug is annihilation

[Tl21G3lVl]

It’s actually not in The Great 40 Sutta, but there is this…

"Lord, is there any form that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity? Is there any feeling... any perception... Are there any fabrications... Is there any consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity?"

"No, monk, there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[pegembara]

@cappucino - It is certainly not annihilation.

yeah…


being reborn as a bug is annihilation

The bug is born and will die(annihilated). That is all. Birth is followed by death. The endless cycle continues. Until...

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a mother. The tears you have shed over the death of a mother while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to relatives... loss with regard to wealth... loss with regard to disease. The tears you have shed over loss with regard to disease while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[pegembara]

It’s actually not in The Great 40 Sutta, but there is this…

"Lord, is there any form that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity? Is there any feeling... any perception... Are there any fabrications... Is there any consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity?"

"No, monk, there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Something subject to change doesn't last even a second, let alone an eternity.
Is there such a thing?
Consciousness is an experience as in we are all conscious. Eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind consciousness are experiences.

Consciousness without surface is just a thought or idea. Just another experience.

The truth is still and has no voice, things that speak are not the truth.
Ajahn Dtun

[cappuccino]

Is there such a thing?

There is a state of mind, everlasting


Called nirvana, the deathless

[Cause_and_Effect]

You don't know what the 'mind' and 'consciousness' are. You are stuck on mere concepts.
As he described, the awareness doesn't go away. It can't go away because it is reality itself.

It can't go away, or the mind just isn't trained enough to see it's cessation?

I don't think you will ever get it through concepts. The protoconscious field is the structure of reality itself. It's like asking if you can observe time, space or the universe
ceasing. They are constituents of reality that cannot cease. What you can train to witness ceasing is it's participation in nama-rupa.

Maybe you don't need to understand this though to practice. Just because you formed a nihilist concept of Nibbana which is totally off doesn't mean you can't walk the path towards it then discover what it is.

As he described, the awareness doesn't go away. It can't go away because it is reality itself.

I thought we couldn't say what nibbāna is?

We can say it's a reality. An ayatana, a dhatu, the Supreme Dhamma. All of which indicate it's not merely a designation for cessation of the aggregates.
It's rather liberation and transformation of the field from participation in the nama rupa of the aggregates. What it is at that point is beyond conventional reality, more real than real. We can say only what limits it is freed from.

[Ceisiwr]

I don't think you will ever get it through concepts. The protoconscious field is the structure of reality itself. It's like asking if you can observe time, space or the universe
ceasing. They are constituents of reality that cannot cease. What you can train to witness ceasing is it's participation in nama-rupa.

I think that’s all it is. A concept. It’s not something supported by early Buddhism or Theravada. If it participates in samsara then it’s not permanent and unconditioned. It’s impermanent.

Maybe you don't need to understand this though to practice. Just because you formed a nihilist concept of Nibbana which is totally off doesn't mean you can't walk the path towards it then discover what it is.

Since this charge of nihilism is your own non-Dhammic use of the word, I see no need to take it seriously.

We can say it's a reality. An ayatana, a dhatu, the Supreme Dhamma.

Yes.

It's rather liberation and transformation of the field from participation in the nama rupa of the aggregates. What it is at that point is beyond conventional reality, more real than real. We can say only what limits it is freed from.

No.

[Cause_and_Effect]

We can say it's a reality. An ayatana, a dhatu, the Supreme Dhamma.

Yes.

None of your descriptions align with this.

Cessation of all dhammas is not the supreme dhamma.

Nothingness is not an ayatana

Non-existance (whether of something that existed or not previously) is not a dhatu.

[Ceisiwr]

We can say it's a reality. An ayatana, a dhatu, the Supreme Dhamma.

Yes.

None of your descriptions align with this.

Cessation of all dhammas is not the supreme dhamma.

Nothingness is not an ayatana

Non-existance (whether of something that existed or not previously) is not a dhatu.

Nibbana is not being affected by anything. In the Buddhas time hedonists claimed that satisfying the senses is nibbana, as in that leads to a state of not being affected by anything. Others thought it was in one of the Jhanas. For the Buddha, it’s only in total cessation.