'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Pondera
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Pondera »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:20 am
Pondera wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:51 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:32 am

Cessation of grasping makes sense, but how would one function without sense-perception?
Perfectly fine. Well. I was letting go off eye perception when I almost got into an accident on the road. But I expect that if we leave it up to the monks, we shan’t be seeing them walk off cliffs.
It appears from the suttas that the aggregates are still present for the Arahant, which would include sense-consciousness (vinnana).
So it's grasping and identification which have ceased for the Arahant.
I didn’t say “identification”. And by “grasping” i meant “craving”. So yes. In line with the four noble truths ... The Arahant has destroyed craving. That includes lust, aversion, and ignorance. Meaning “grasping” after sense objects. His sense perception faculties exist and the sense media exists. Of that he can do nothing. But with regards to clinging and craving after such media and such contact - he has done away with such nasty habits. Nice try. Is it your conduct here to trick people into saying things they shouldn’t? Or is your conduct here to open your closed mind and actually learn from someone who knows more than you? Or are you of the breed who denies that anyone can be father along the path than you?
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Pondera wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:48 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:20 am
Pondera wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:51 am

Perfectly fine. Well. I was letting go off eye perception when I almost got into an accident on the road. But I expect that if we leave it up to the monks, we shan’t be seeing them walk off cliffs.
It appears from the suttas that the aggregates are still present for the Arahant, which would include sense-consciousness (vinnana).
So it's grasping and identification which have ceased for the Arahant.
I didn’t say “identification”. And by “grasping” i meant “craving”. So yes. In line with the four noble truths ... The Arahant has destroyed craving. That includes lust, aversion, and ignorance. Meaning “grasping” after sense objects. His sense perception faculties exist and the sense media exists. Of that he can do nothing. But with regards to clinging and craving after such media and such contact - he has done away with such nasty habits. Nice try. Is it your conduct here to trick people into saying things they shouldn’t? Or is your conduct here to open your closed mind and actually learn from someone who knows more than you? Or are you of the breed who denies that anyone can be father along the path than you?
Why the personal attacks?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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cappuccino
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

Pondera wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:23 am
cappuccino wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:09 am
pegembara wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:02 am Nibbana is when the lights go out.
This is not a description of Nirvana
Mind goes out.
No…
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Coëmgenu
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Pondera wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:23 am
cappuccino wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:09 am
pegembara wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:02 am Nibbana is when the lights go out.
This is not a description of Nirvana

Lights stay on. Mind goes out.
Removing the "s" from "lights," I actually personally agree with this, but also feel the need to point out that "light vs mind" is not a hermeneutic that is native to Śrāvaka Buddhism or the EBTs.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:23 pm I actually personally agree with this, but
He discerns that 'With the break-up of the body, after the termination of life, all that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here.'

Gelañña Sutta
Last edited by cappuccino on Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:23 pm
Pondera wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:23 am
cappuccino wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:09 am

This is not a description of Nirvana

Lights stay on. Mind goes out.
Removing the "s" from "lights," I actually personally agree with this, but also feel the need to point out that "light vs mind" is not a hermeneutic that is native to Śrāvaka Buddhism or the EBTs.
What is your view of nibbana?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Likely tragically close-enough to a Siddhaloka that you'd be very disappointed in me.

:spy:

I joke, but not enough.

Nirvāṇa is the abode of the Saṃbuddhas. It's also the dharmadhātu misgrasped. The dharmadhātu, properly understood rather than misgrasped, is the dharmakāya that is otherwise known as "Nirvāṇa."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:38 pm Likely tragically close-enough to a Siddhaloka that you'd be very disappointed in me.

:spy:

I joke, but not enough.

Nirvāṇa is the abode of the Saṃbuddhas. It's also the dharmadhātu misgrasped. The dharmadhātu, properly understood rather than misgrasped, is the dharmakāya that is otherwise known as "Nirvāṇa."
I find this hard to understand. Sounds like you are saying there is something to or in nibbana? That wouldn’t disappoint me. I wouldn’t agree, but that’s fine. I’m fine with people believing in all sorts of things. My issue in this thread and others, as you know, is when people try to make texts says things they just don’t say.

Could you make a post in connection to other paths so we can discuss it further?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:50 pmCould you make a post in connection to other paths so we can discuss it further?
I can't imagine how I'd make it relevant to Theravāda, tbh. I'm also very cautious about sharing my views, because that can very easily be misconstrued as evangelization by those who are not particularly generous toward me in their appraisals.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:38 pm Nirvāṇa is the abode of the Saṃbuddhas.
:goodpost:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:56 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:50 pmCould you make a post in connection to other paths so we can discuss it further?
I can't imagine how I'd make it relevant to Theravāda, tbh. I'm also very cautious about sharing my views, because that can very easily be misconstrued as evangelization by those who are not particularly generous toward me in their appraisals.
Or PM if you prefer.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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equilibrium
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by equilibrium »

pegembara wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:32 am Yes. All is aflame. The All cannot be separated from vinnana. Nibbana is when the lights go out.

When the light of consciousness lands on nothing the light goes out.

There is no contention here.
What you mean to say in red is that when the light of consciousness doesn’t land on anything, it gives an impression that the light is off…..but it’s always on.

Furthermore, If the lights were off, that would contradict the 3 characteristics of the unconditioned.
"Bhikkhus, there are these three
characteristics that define the
unconditioned. What three? No arising is
seen, no vanishing is seen, and no
alteration while it persists is seen. These
are the three characteristics that define the
unconditioned."
This should raise some interesting questions…..
Last edited by equilibrium on Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Ceisiwr »

equilibrium wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:03 pm
"Bhikkhus, there are these three
characteristics that define the
unconditioned. What three? No arising is
seen, no vanishing is seen, and no
alteration while it persists is seen. These
are the three characteristics that define the
unconditioned."
It’s that there is no persisting thing which alters, rather than there being a persisting thing which never alters. In the parallel version it is said to be empty of arising, ceasing, persisting and change.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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cappuccino
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:06 pm It’s that there is no persisting thing which alters, rather than there being a persisting thing which never alters.
You change (Inconstancy)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:55 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:06 pm It’s that there is no persisting thing which alters, rather than there being a persisting thing which never alters.
You change (Inconstancy)
I feel we could do this dance for an eternity.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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