Your no self view is because you want to transcend self
'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
“Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no contemplatives or brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view.
"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming]; there is right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
It’s neither eternalism nor nihilism since per the sutta they are both wrong views.
Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
No one in this thread has proposed nihilism. Eternalism on the other hand ...Tl21G3lVl wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:41 pm“Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no contemplatives or brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view.
"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming]; there is right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
It’s neither eternalism nor nihilism since per the sutta they are both wrong views.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
You do not know what eternalism is
Nor do you know what annihilationism is
It would help if you did…
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
We go by what's in the Pali canon. It's qualities are it has never arisen, it will never cease and it persists.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:06 pmIt’s that there is no persisting thing which alters, rather than there being a persisting thing which never alters. In the parallel version it is said to be empty of arising, ceasing, persisting and change.equilibrium wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:03 pm
"Bhikkhus, there are these three
characteristics that define the
unconditioned. What three? No arising is
seen, no vanishing is seen, and no
alteration while it persists is seen. These
are the three characteristics that define the
unconditioned."
This fits with synonyms of Nibbana as the unperishing, the permanent etc.
It's also fits with the description of Nibbana as the supreme dhamma.
No matter how much you try, your wrong view of nihilism of all experience in nibbana wont hold up.
Nibbana is, and and Nibbana is real
The supreme dhamma is not the cessation of all dhammas. That's nonsensical and a misreading of the suttas.
Last edited by Cause_and_Effect on Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...
That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."
(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."
(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
Briefly, eternalism is the idea you are unchanging
Annihilationism is the idea you will not exist
Annihilationism is the idea you will not exist
Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
"Sarvāstivāda-Vaibhāṣika were nihilists"Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:59 pmWe go by what's in the Pali canon. It's qualities are it has never arisen, it will never cease and it persists.
This fits with synonyms of Nibbana as the unperishing, the permanent etc.
It's also fits with the description of Nibbana as the supreme dhamma.
No matter how much you try, your wrong view of nihilism of all experience in nibbana wont hold up.
Nibbana is, and and Nibbana is real
The supreme dhamma is not the cessation of all dhammas. That's nonsensical and a misreading of the suttas.
Conditioned phenomena arise, persist for a time and undergo change (change whilst persisting) and then cease. Nibbāna is the opposite of conditioned dhammas. With nibbāna then there is no arising, no persisting for a time and then changing (no change whilst persisting) and no ceasing. That's the Theravādin framing of it. The parallel version says the same thing, just without the ambiguity in "no change whilst persisting". If something does not arise it cannot change whilst persisting, because it was never "born". Never being born, there is no persisting or change (ageing) nor death (ceasing).
You still haven't given us the sutta definition of nihilism. So far, you seem to be using it in an idiosyncratic way.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
Last edited by cappuccino on Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
Viññanam anidassanam
Consciousness without surface
I have experiences of this, where I feel free, my mind is not landing on thoughts
There is expansion
Words can’t fully describe this
It is whole and complete , nothing is lacking, it was and is the most natural experience
Mind is quite tricky so it comes back and covers it just as a cloud covers the sun
But once experienced one always knows that the sun is behind the clouds even if it’s a cloudy day
It’s unmistakable clarity and brings it’s own authority
Consciousness without surface
I have experiences of this, where I feel free, my mind is not landing on thoughts
There is expansion
Words can’t fully describe this
It is whole and complete , nothing is lacking, it was and is the most natural experience
Mind is quite tricky so it comes back and covers it just as a cloud covers the sun
But once experienced one always knows that the sun is behind the clouds even if it’s a cloudy day
It’s unmistakable clarity and brings it’s own authority
Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
Whilst it must have been a wonderful experience, it's just another natural phenomenon to let go of. I wouldn't get stuck on the mind, or conciousness.Microdose wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:11 pm Viññanam anidassanam
Consciousness without surface
I have experiences of this, where I feel free, my mind is not landing on thoughts
There is expansion
Words can’t fully describe this
It is whole and complete , nothing is lacking, it was and is the most natural experience
Mind is quite tricky so it comes back and covers it just as a cloud covers the sun
But once experienced one always knows that the sun is behind the clouds even if it’s a cloudy day
It’s unmistakable clarity and brings it’s own authority
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
Nirvana is not let go of
May come and go but eventually it stays
Last edited by cappuccino on Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
Smells like an oxymoron.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- cappuccino
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
Yes, you know.Microdose wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:11 pm Viññanam anidassanam
Consciousness without surface
I have experiences of this, where I feel free, my mind is not landing on thoughts
There is expansion
Words can’t fully describe this
It is whole and complete , nothing is lacking, it was and is the most natural experience
Mind is quite tricky so it comes back and covers it just as a cloud covers the sun
But once experienced one always knows that the sun is behind the clouds even if it’s a cloudy day
It’s unmistakable clarity and brings it’s own authority
Explaining it to people who don't is difficult and they will try to find rationalisms to support their false notions.
You don't know what the 'mind' and 'consciousness' are. You are stuck on mere concepts.
As he described, the awareness doesn't go away. It can't go away because it is reality itself.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...
That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."
(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."
(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All