Is a buddhist arhat equal to an abrahamic saint?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
confusedsoso
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Is a buddhist arhat equal to an abrahamic saint?

Post by confusedsoso »

Is a buddhist arhat equal to an abrahamic saint?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is a buddhist arhat equal to an abrahamic saint?

Post by Coëmgenu »

A "saint" is simply someone who is "holy." Different Abrahamic religions have different criteria for what makes someone "holy" or "godly."

The term "saint" in Classical Chinese is 聖, and it is also used as a translation for "ārya/āriya." So I'd say yes as a matter of translation, but no on terms of what specific religions, Christianity for instance, believe of their saints.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Pasindu
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Re: Is a buddhist arhat equal to an abrahamic saint?

Post by Pasindu »

confusedsoso wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:44 pm Is a buddhist arhat equal to an abrahamic saint?
in this Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, is found the Noble Eightfold Path; and in it alone are also found true ascetics of the first, second, third, and fourth degrees of saintliness.
--Mahaparinibbana sutta
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Is a buddhist arhat equal to an abrahamic saint?

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Pasindu wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:02 pm
confusedsoso wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:44 pm Is a buddhist arhat equal to an abrahamic saint?
in this Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, is found the Noble Eightfold Path; and in it alone are also found true ascetics of the first, second, third, and fourth degrees of saintliness.
--Mahaparinibbana sutta
The Blessed One said, “In any doctrine & discipline where the noble eightfold path is not ascertained, no contemplative of the first… second… third… fourth order [stream-winner, once-returner, non-returner, or arahant] is ascertained. But in any doctrine & discipline where the noble eightfold path is ascertained, contemplatives of the first… second… third… fourth order are ascertained. The noble eightfold path is ascertained in this doctrine & discipline, and right here there are contemplatives of the first… second… third… fourth order. Other teachings are empty of knowledgeable contemplatives. And if the monks dwell rightly, this world will not be empty of arahants.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/DN/DN16.html
Many saints of other religions have demonstrated supernatural powers described in the Suttas.
[5] "He wields manifold supranormal powers. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, & mountains as if through space. He dives in & out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting crosslegged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches & strokes even the sun & moon, so mighty & powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.

[6] "He hears — by means of the divine ear-element, purified & surpassing the human — both kinds of sounds: divine & human, whether near or far.

[7] "He knows the awareness of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with his own awareness. He discerns a mind with passion as a mind with passion, and a mind without passion as a mind without passion. He discerns a mind with aversion as a mind with aversion, and a mind without aversion as a mind without aversion. He discerns a mind with delusion as a mind with delusion, and a mind without delusion as a mind without delusion. He discerns a restricted mind as a restricted mind, and a scattered mind as a scattered mind. He discerns an enlarged mind as an enlarged mind, and an unenlarged mind as an unenlarged mind. He discerns an excelled mind [1] as an excelled mind, and an unexcelled mind as an unexcelled mind. He discerns a concentrated mind as a concentrated mind, and an unconcentrated mind as an unconcentrated mind. He discerns a released mind as a released mind, and an unreleased mind as an unreleased mind.

[8] "He recollects his manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he remembers his manifold past lives in their modes & details.

[9] "He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — he sees beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
whether they achieved nirvana I don't know.

:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/
SarathW
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Re: Is a buddhist arhat equal to an abrahamic saint?

Post by SarathW »

Saint = "a person acknowledged as holy or virtuous and regarded in Christian faith as being in heaven after death."
Arahat = No rebirth.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Is a buddhist arhat equal to an abrahamic saint?

Post by DNS »

SarathW wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:41 pm Saint = "a person acknowledged as holy or virtuous and regarded in Christian faith as being in heaven after death."
Arahat = No rebirth.
Also, a Saint is someone who is credited with some miracle. For example, a person with an illness prays to some famous deceased priest or nun and as a result of that, gets cured.
Diego de Alcalá:
On a hunting trip, Henry IV of Castile fell from his horse and injured his arm. In intense pain and with his doctors unable to relieve his agony, he went to Alcalá and prayed to Didacus for a cure. The saint's body was removed from his casket and placed beside the king. Henry then kissed the body and placed the saint's hand on his injured arm. The king felt the pain disappear and his arm immediately regained its former strength.[6]

Don Carlos, Prince of Asturias, son of King Philip II of Spain, was of a difficult and rebellious character. On the night of 19 April 1562, he was groping around in the dark after a night spent with some ladies when he fell down a flight of stairs and landed on his head. There he was found the next morning, unconscious and partially paralyzed. He later became blind, developed a high fever and his head swelled to an enormous size. In a moment of lucidity, he asked that he wanted to make a personal petition to St. Didacus. The saint's body was brought to his chambers. The prior of the convent placed one of Carlos' hands upon the chest of St. Didacus, whereupon the prince fell into a deep and peaceful sleep. Six hours later, he awoke and related that in a dream, he saw the saint telling him that he would not die. The prince recovered from his brush with death.[6] Other sources have Didacus's body laid on the prince's bed.[7]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didacus_of_Alcal%C3%A1
The city of San Diego is named after this Saint.

Whereas an arahant is someone who is fully awakened by his own efforts, not devotional prayer from others (to make him a Saint), as in Abrahamic religions.
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Re: Is a buddhist arhat equal to an abrahamic saint?

Post by Pasindu »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:11 pm
Pasindu wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:02 pm
confusedsoso wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:44 pm Is a buddhist arhat equal to an abrahamic saint?
in this Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, is found the Noble Eightfold Path; and in it alone are also found true ascetics of the first, second, third, and fourth degrees of saintliness.
--Mahaparinibbana sutta
The Blessed One said, “In any doctrine & discipline where the noble eightfold path is not ascertained, no contemplative of the first… second… third… fourth order [stream-winner, once-returner, non-returner, or arahant] is ascertained. But in any doctrine & discipline where the noble eightfold path is ascertained, contemplatives of the first… second… third… fourth order are ascertained. The noble eightfold path is ascertained in this doctrine & discipline, and right here there are contemplatives of the first… second… third… fourth order. Other teachings are empty of knowledgeable contemplatives. And if the monks dwell rightly, this world will not be empty of arahants.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/DN/DN16.html

Hello Lucas!
I still believe the four fruits are exclusive to buddhism. While the quote in your post is true, it does not necessarily say that there ARE other religions with arhats. I think(just an opinion) it is more for discerning what teaching is buddha's and what teaching is not. Because anyone can introduce someone to a teaching and claim it is Buddha's word, but in order to make sure, you need some criteria of buddhism. I think the above quote provides some of those criteria.

And the above quote says that "in any doctrine & discipline where the noble eightfold path is ascertained". This is the problem for me. While other religions can have few of the eight, like samma ajiwa, samma vacha, it is not possible for samma ditti(right view) to exist outside of buddhism. As it includes the belief in four noble truths. And save for a Pacceka Buddha, only Lord Buddha is able to uncover all of four noble truths without the help of any prior teaching. Not even greatly intelligent arhat like Sariputta thero can do it. So in any other religion the noble eightfold path would be incomplete. So according to above Buddha's quote there can not be any of the four stages outside of buddhism.

As for this explanation, is just my own reasoning so it can be flawed, if so, please point out. However I have heard in various dhamma sermons that the 4 fruits are indeed exclusive to buddhism. And personally, I do not know any main religion that describes the four noble truths or paticcasamuppada so vividly outside of buddhism.

I do agree about iddhi powers as they are said to be mostly acquired by meditation. Which is not something Buddha invented. And having samma ditti is not a requirement to attain them. Even in jataka tales there are stories of ascetics with iddhi powers in times where a Buddha is not present.

:namaste:
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Re: Is a buddhist arhat equal to an abrahamic saint?

Post by dharmacorps »

My answer would be no. One is a private form of enlightenment, the other is an institutional honorific.
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Re: Is a buddhist arhat equal to an abrahamic saint?

Post by Bundokji »

There are similarities and differences in my understanding. Both Arahants and saints teach siding with merits. Both have attained supramundane knowledge that is not accessible to ordinary people. Not everyone who attains supramundane knowledge sides with merit. Asavakkhaya is said to be exclusive to the Buddha's linage.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Is a buddhist arhat equal to an abrahamic saint?

Post by asahi »

Does arhat believes in one God the creator ? No .
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sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

There was a time when The future Buddha believed in a creator god.

The are persons who become arhats at death.

Who knows if a later declared saint did not become arhat at death.

Who knows if a person became a private Buddha and did not declare it but lived a saintly life and people came to believe things about that person from a Christian perspective and found that said belief resulted in miracles without the proclaimed saint ever owning said miracles. After death that person may be sanctified by a church for reasons that make sense to that church but have nothing to do with deeper realities.

In short, does the question really have an answer.
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Re: Is a buddhist arhat equal to an abrahamic saint?

Post by SDC »

dharmacorps wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:32 am My answer would be no. One is a private form of enlightenment, the other is an institutional honorific.
Agreed. Sainthood is based primarily on external criteria. I’m sure there’s a saint or two who were not wholesome internally. To be an ariya is to have knowledge and experience, and that is not necessarily going to be evident to anyone other than another ariya.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Is a buddhist arhat equal to an abrahamic saint?

Post by Bundokji »

SDC wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:45 pm Agreed. Sainthood is based primarily on external criteria. I’m sure there’s a saint or two who were not wholesome internally. To be an ariya is to have knowledge and experience, and that is not necessarily going to be evident to anyone other than another ariya.
Hi SDC,

Would you not consider impossibility of breaking the precepts as an external criteria?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Is a buddhist arhat equal to an abrahamic saint?

Post by SDC »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:07 pm
SDC wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:45 pm Agreed. Sainthood is based primarily on external criteria. I’m sure there’s a saint or two who were not wholesome internally. To be an ariya is to have knowledge and experience, and that is not necessarily going to be evident to anyone other than another ariya.
Hi SDC,

Would you not consider impossibility of breaking the precepts as an external criteria?
Definitely not. Only that individual would know it is impossible for them. Another person could never know it for sure.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Is a buddhist arhat equal to an abrahamic saint?

Post by Bundokji »

SDC wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:16 pm Definitely not. Only that individual would know it is impossible for them. Another person could never know it for sure.
I thought of it as external in the sense that it makes the ariya conduct in body and speech predictable, testable and observable. It indeed lacks certainty in terms of being testable ad infinitum, but it is testable once at a time such as leaving some money unguarded, or sending a sexy woman to seduce ...etc
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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