We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
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Eko Care
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We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Post by Eko Care »

Seek to find any entity apart from the below elements.

Take one by one and go around the circle, repeatedly, to find out any permanent entity that observes or handles everything being in the middle of them.

https://classicaltheravada.org/t/we-tra ... alysis/443
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retrofuturist
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Re: We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Where does manasikara fit in this schematic?

Image

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Alrac
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Re: We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Post by Alrac »

Eko Care wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:26 am Seek to find any entity apart from the below elements.

Take one by one and go around the circle, repeatedly, to find out any permanent entity that observes or handles everything being in the middle of them.

https://classicaltheravada.org/t/we-tra ... alysis/443
Are you saying there is no ignorance but only elements through this whole samsara? If so, why is this realization of "mere only elements" not ending the samsara? :shrug:
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Eko Care
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Re: We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Post by Eko Care »

This is considered the Entrance/ Key to Vipassana without which one ca not end the Samsara.

It is called
Sankhara pariccheda (delimitation of sankharas) or
Nama rupa pariccheda


And pure vipassana-yanika does this as
Rupa Dhatu manasikara + Nama Dhatu manasikara

Later the meditator is needed to contemplate on causes and three characteristics.
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Re: We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Post by Alrac »

Eko Care wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:10 am Later the meditator is needed to contemplate on causes and three characteristics.
Your ideas of "meditator" and "we" sound like you believe in an eternal soul.
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retrofuturist
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Re: We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Eko Care,
retrofuturist wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:41 am Where does manasikara fit in this schematic?
Do you have a response Eko Care? Since attention (or more specifically, the movement of attention) is where a sense of self may hide, it would seem pertinent to address.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Eko Care
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Re: We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Post by Eko Care »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:57 am
retrofuturist wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:41 am Where does manasikara fit in this schematic?
Do you have a response Eko Care? Since attention (or more specifically, the movement of attention) is where a sense of self may hide, it would seem pertinent to address.
Manasikara is a universal-cetasika which is included in Sankhara-khanda.

Out of 52 cetasikas 50 are included in Sankhara-khanda. Other 2 are Vedana and Sanna which are also khandas.

And there mentioned different ways of contemplating depend on the character of the meditator.
Some analyze as 12 Ayatanas and some as 18 Dhatus ..etc.

Metta.
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retrofuturist
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Re: We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

If it's universal, how does that help us see the three characteristics of it, in your tradition.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Eko Care
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Re: We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Post by Eko Care »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:32 am If it's universal, how does that help us see the three characteristics of it, in your tradition.
What is the problem with being universal?

We can see all the 52 cetasikas' three characteristics.
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Re: We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Eko Care,
Eko Care wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:41 am
retrofuturist wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:32 am If it's universal, how does that help us see the three characteristics of it, in your tradition.
What is the problem with being universal?

We can see all the 52 cetasikas' three characteristics.
If it's common to all, it's absent from none - omnipresent. Perfect soil for the perception of self to hide. Got any other universals where self can hide?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Eko Care
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Re: We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Post by Eko Care »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:44 am If it's common to all, it's absent from none - omnipresent. Perfect soil for the perception of self to hide. Got any other universals where self can hide?
Universals in akusala cittas are considered akusala. (because they have same object and exist at the same time)
Universals in kusala cittas are considered kusala. (because they have same object and exist at the same time)

When the magga-citta (a kusala citta) is present, the self is absent.
Pulsar
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Re: We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Post by Pulsar »

Eko Care wrote
When the magga-citta (a kusala citta) is present, the self is absent.
Has the 12 nidanas vanished in the magga-citta? Can you elaborate on the nature of consciousness in Magga-citta?
Regards :candle:
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Re: We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Post by robertk »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:32 am Greetings,

If it's universal, how does that help us see the three characteristics of it, in your tradition.

Metta,
Paul. :)
It is, like other mental factors, simply an element that arises and performs its function. We deluded worldlings think I am having manisakara but it is merely an ephemeral, conditioned phenomena: not to be grasped at, alien.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Whatever states are included there comprised by form, feeling,
perception, volitional formations[which include manisikara] or consciousness: he views those
states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a boil, as a
dart, as misery, as affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as empty,
as non-self.
"

Although it arises with each citta it is never exactly the same. As Eko Care noted it is flavoured by the other elements that arise with it.
Nina van Gorkom: http://vipassana.info/cetasikas9.html
Manasikira is different according as it arises with different types of citta. When, for example, seeing arises, it is accompanied by Mamasikara which joins seeing and the accompanying cetasikas to visible object. Seeing is vipaka and thus manasikara is also vipika Shortly after the seeing there can be attention to the shape and form of something and then the object is not visible object but a concept, At that moment there is another type of citta acocmpanied by another manasikara, At each moment manasikra is different. When there is lobha-mula-citta, akusala citta rooted in attachrnent, manasikara which accompanies lobha-mula-citta is also akusala. When there is kusala citta the manasikara which accompanies the kusala circa is also kusala.
Pulsar
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Re: We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Post by Pulsar »

robertk wrote wrote
When there is kusala citta the manasikara which accompanies the kusala circa is also kusala.
Thank you, following this line of reasoning how would you explain the following abhidhammic statement?
When the magga-citta (a kusala citta) is present, the self is absent.
Has the 12 nidanas vanished in the magga-citta? Can you elaborate on the nature of consciousness in Magga-citta?
Regards :candle:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:44 am Greetings Eko Care,
Eko Care wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:41 am
retrofuturist wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:32 am If it's universal, how does that help us see the three characteristics of it, in your tradition.
What is the problem with being universal?

We can see all the 52 cetasikas' three characteristics.
If it's common to all, it's absent from none - omnipresent. Perfect soil for the perception of self to hide. Got any other universals where self can hide?

Metta,
Paul. :)
The logic of this seems off. It’s like saying that because dukkha is universal to all, dukkha is therefore a basis for a self.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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