Is the person liberated thus from the re-becoming of the 5 aggregates?"A burden indeed
are the five aggregates,
and the carrier of the burden
is the person.
Taking up the burden in the world
is stressful.
Casting off the burden
is bliss.
Having cast off the heavy burden
and not taking on another,
pulling up craving,
along with its root,
one is free from hunger,
totally unbound."
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_22.html
"A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
-
- Posts: 1103
- Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:39 am
"A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
What is the meaning of this sutta verse? It seems to indicate the person is separate from the aggregates.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...
That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."
(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."
(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
- confusedlayman
- Posts: 6258
- Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
- Location: Human Realm (as of now)
Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
there is only agreegates suffering from agreregates...Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 3:08 pm What is the meaning of this sutta verse? It seems to indicate the person is separate from the aggregates.
Is the person liberated thus from the re-becoming of the 5 aggregates?"A burden indeed
are the five aggregates,
and the carrier of the burden
is the person.
Taking up the burden in the world
is stressful.
Casting off the burden
is bliss.
Having cast off the heavy burden
and not taking on another,
pulling up craving,
along with its root,
one is free from hunger,
totally unbound."
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_22.html
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
True, there is person who is separate from the khandhas.
Another sutta says,
Another sutta says,
The very least, khandhas are not the self. And it says I should give up desire for khandhas. Suggesting khandhas are something obtainable.https://suttacentral.net/sn22.69/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none¬es=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:“Sir, form doesn’t belong to self; I should give up desire for it.
“Rūpaṁ kho, bhante, anattaniyaṁ; tatra me chando pahātabbo.
Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
What you say is interpretation.confusedlayman wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:41 pm there is only agreegates suffering from agreregates...
Whereas the sutta says puggala/person.
- confusedlayman
- Posts: 6258
- Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
- Location: Human Realm (as of now)
Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
person is illusional perception of thought. conventionally its ok to say but it is a thought after all.auto wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:58 pmWhat you say is interpretation.confusedlayman wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:41 pm there is only agreegates suffering from agreregates...
Whereas the sutta says puggala/person.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
Sutta says 'this person has'confusedlayman wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:59 pmperson is illusional perception of thought. conventionally its ok to say but it is a thought after all.auto wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:58 pmWhat you say is interpretation.confusedlayman wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:41 pm there is only agreegates suffering from agreregates...
Whereas the sutta says puggala/person.
according to your interpretation it is the six elements has six elements, six fields of contact has six fields of contact.https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none¬es=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:“‘This person has six elements, six fields of contact, eighteen mental preoccupations, and four foundations.
“‘Cha dhāturo ayaṁ, bhikkhu, puriso cha phassāyatano aṭṭhārasa manopavicāro caturādhiṭṭhāno;
Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
You can have thoughts about persons. But we can here assume insanity, do you think that the person what you think of is not existing in someplace?confusedlayman wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:59 pm person is illusional perception of thought. conventionally its ok to say but it is a thought after all.
Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
How you interpret this passage will determine if you are a Neo-Pudgalavādin or not.Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 3:08 pm What is the meaning of this sutta verse? It seems to indicate the person is separate from the aggregates.
Is the person liberated thus from the re-becoming of the 5 aggregates?"A burden indeed
are the five aggregates,
and the carrier of the burden
is the person.
Taking up the burden in the world
is stressful.
Casting off the burden
is bliss.
Having cast off the heavy burden
and not taking on another,
pulling up craving,
along with its root,
one is free from hunger,
totally unbound."
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_22.html
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
It seems the person is the result of the aggregates, but since there is no evidence of that direction (or order), the person stands as the reason for aggregates (or as that which bears them). In fact, all the evidence points in the other direction: to a person that gathers and consumes, that feels feelings, but what’s fascinating is that “the person” is in the same field as those things in the world, because it is a thing in the world. Not having broken up that wrong order, the experience endures through it, which is impossible, but nevertheless that is how it is.
(Yet another reason virtue has to come first. If you’re going around gathering up sense pleasures with absolutely no perspective, it is impossible to stop that order from enduring.)
(Yet another reason virtue has to come first. If you’re going around gathering up sense pleasures with absolutely no perspective, it is impossible to stop that order from enduring.)
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
I think it means that if you pick the aggregates up, you will find that you have become a person.
Carrying some very heavy aggregates.
Carrying some very heavy aggregates.
Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
What’s even more intense is finding no evidence of an initial “picking up”, just that of a person immersed in the burden already.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
- justpractice
- Posts: 123
- Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:49 pm
Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
I really like this Sutta.
To add some dismay to the intensity, a person can very easily comprehend this on a theoretical level while simultaneously carrying - and even increasing - the weight of the burden. In fact, I see undoing this contradiction as the crux of the practice: aligning one's behavior with this theoretical knowledge until that knowledge can take root and actually protect one's behavior from further accumulation. As you already mentioned, this is why virtue must come first.
On one level, every person - even the most wild and unrestrained person - is acting under the weight of the burden. It's just that the unrestrained person, immersed in sensual gratification, has unknowingly nurtured the disastrous view that any burden is secondary - an anomaly even - to the endless availability of pleasure. This would be the fulfillment of the perversion, which the restrained person is giving himself a chance to undo through his restraint. Within that space of restraint, the burden should make itself (quite uncomfortably) known, at which point the strength developed on account of that initial restraint will be put to the test and hopefully strong enough to allow further endurance and development in regards to the weight he is carrying. This is how the contradiction can eventually be "cast off" and the craving uprooted. The person can then be understood.
Very intense indeed!
To add some dismay to the intensity, a person can very easily comprehend this on a theoretical level while simultaneously carrying - and even increasing - the weight of the burden. In fact, I see undoing this contradiction as the crux of the practice: aligning one's behavior with this theoretical knowledge until that knowledge can take root and actually protect one's behavior from further accumulation. As you already mentioned, this is why virtue must come first.
On one level, every person - even the most wild and unrestrained person - is acting under the weight of the burden. It's just that the unrestrained person, immersed in sensual gratification, has unknowingly nurtured the disastrous view that any burden is secondary - an anomaly even - to the endless availability of pleasure. This would be the fulfillment of the perversion, which the restrained person is giving himself a chance to undo through his restraint. Within that space of restraint, the burden should make itself (quite uncomfortably) known, at which point the strength developed on account of that initial restraint will be put to the test and hopefully strong enough to allow further endurance and development in regards to the weight he is carrying. This is how the contradiction can eventually be "cast off" and the craving uprooted. The person can then be understood.
"Whoever avoids sensual desires
— as he would, with his foot,
the head of a snake —
goes beyond, mindful,
this attachment in the world." - Sn 4.1
— as he would, with his foot,
the head of a snake —
goes beyond, mindful,
this attachment in the world." - Sn 4.1
- equilibrium
- Posts: 526
- Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:07 am
Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
“5 aggregates” are what you have created.Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 3:08 pm What is the meaning of this sutta verse? It seems to indicate the person is separate from the aggregates.
Is the person liberated thus from the re-becoming of the 5 aggregates?"A burden indeed
are the five aggregates,
and the carrier of the burden
is the person.
Taking up the burden in the world
is stressful.
Casting off the burden
is bliss.
Having cast off the heavy burden
and not taking on another,
pulling up craving,
along with its root,
one is free from hunger,
totally unbound."
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_22.html
“Person” is merely a label/ identification….l-am.
5 aggregates can be cast off…resulting “bliss” (nibbana) and “not taking another” means escaping suffering (birth & death).
“Unbound” is where one is no longer conditioned by it…..freed.
It is not that the “person is separate from the aggregates” or “person liberated” because the aggregates makes up the person, merely labels and the the conceit I-am…..rather
The most important word here is “unbound” because THAT which is unbound has escaped samsara and will no more be conditioned under existence (birth & death).
Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
तत्त्वमसि (Tat Tvam Asi)equilibrium wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:47 pm
“5 aggregates” are what you have created.
“Person” is merely a label/ identification….l-am.
5 aggregates can be cast off…resulting “bliss” (nibbana) and “not taking another” means escaping suffering (birth & death).
“Unbound” is where one is no longer conditioned by it…..freed.
It is not that the “person is separate from the aggregates” or “person liberated” because the aggregates makes up the person, merely labels and the the conceit I-am…..rather
The most important word here is “unbound” because THAT which is unbound has escaped samsara and will no more be conditioned under existence (birth & death).
Not something the Buddha would have recommended.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
It also explains how a person is separate from the aggregates:Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 3:08 pm What is the meaning of this sutta verse? It seems to indicate the person is separate from the aggregates.
This venerable one with such a name, such a clan-name: This is called the carrier of the burden.
The sutta does not refer to a person when discussing liberation, but to the casting off of craving.Is the person liberated thus from the re-becoming of the 5 aggregates?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
This was the last word of the Tathagata.
This was the last word of the Tathagata.