"A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Tl21G3lVl
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Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."

Post by Tl21G3lVl »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 3:08 pm What is the meaning of this sutta verse? It seems to indicate the person is separate from the aggregates.
"A burden indeed
are the five aggregates,
and the carrier of the burden
is the person.
Taking up the burden in the world
is stressful.
Casting off the burden
is bliss.
Having cast off the heavy burden
and not taking on another,
pulling up craving,
along with its root,
one is free from hunger,
totally unbound."


https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_22.html
Is the person liberated thus from the re-becoming of the 5 aggregates?
I think “Person” refers to the conventional person or one who identifies with the carrier of that burden. In this case, it’s stating that all who carry the burden are suffering. Casting off the burden IMO would be to cast off the “Person”, meaning let go of, and not necessarily to cast off.
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Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."

Post by Spiny Norman »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 3:08 pm What is the meaning of this sutta verse? It seems to indicate the person is separate from the aggregates.
"A burden indeed
are the five aggregates,
and the carrier of the burden
is the person.
Taking up the burden in the world
is stressful.
Casting off the burden
is bliss.
Having cast off the heavy burden
and not taking on another,
pulling up craving,
along with its root,
one is free from hunger,
totally unbound."


https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_22.html
Is the person liberated thus from the re-becoming of the 5 aggregates?
I think "person" here (ayam) is being used in the sense of a convention, as in a "being" (satta).
Note that in the second part of the verse, casting off the burden is associated with "pulling up craving", which suggests the burden is craving, rather than the aggregates themselves.
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asahi
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Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."

Post by asahi »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:41 am I think "person" here (ayam) is being used in the sense of a convention, as in a "being" (satta).
Note that in the second part of the verse, casting off the burden is associated with "pulling up craving", which suggests the burden is craving, rather than the aggregates themselves.
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SDC
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Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."

Post by SDC »

Tl21G3lVl wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:53 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 3:08 pm What is the meaning of this sutta verse? It seems to indicate the person is separate from the aggregates.
"A burden indeed
are the five aggregates,
and the carrier of the burden
is the person.
Taking up the burden in the world
is stressful.
Casting off the burden
is bliss.
Having cast off the heavy burden
and not taking on another,
pulling up craving,
along with its root,
one is free from hunger,
totally unbound."


https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_22.html
Is the person liberated thus from the re-becoming of the 5 aggregates?
I think “Person” refers to the conventional person or one who identifies with the carrier of that burden. In this case, it’s stating that all who carry the burden are suffering. Casting off the burden IMO would be to cast off the “Person”, meaning let go of, and not necessarily to cast off.
That’s what I thought initially, but if you see my post from a page or two ago, the Pali is puggala (individual), which makes the justification for “personhood” of sakkāyadiṭṭhi a bit more tricky to show.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:47 pm Aggregates fooling agregates because conciousness is like magician
and pigs fly, i mean you could come up with anything for the answer.
Tl21G3lVl
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Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."

Post by Tl21G3lVl »

SDC wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:35 pm
So now I’m thinking “Burden” is the carrying of karma and samsara.
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justpractice
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Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."

Post by justpractice »

SDC wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:38 pm We are straying a bit, but just want to correct my hasty posting from earlier. While I’m glad you enjoyed MN 75, I meant to point to the simile of the man being shot by the arrow in MN 63 as something that came close to what I was trying to describe. :embarassed:
Thanks for clarifying! The content of MN 63 is much more aligned with what was being discussed. :jumping:
"Whoever avoids sensual desires
— as he would, with his foot,
the head of a snake —
goes beyond, mindful,
this attachment in the world." - Sn 4.1
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SDC
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Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."

Post by SDC »

Tl21G3lVl wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:52 pm
SDC wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:35 pm
So now I’m thinking “Burden” is the carrying of karma and samsara.
Hi Tl21G3lVl, I thought I was responding to Spiny Norman, the post above yours re: “satta”. I agree with what you said above.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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SDC
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Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."

Post by SDC »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:41 am I think "person" here (ayam) is being used in the sense of a convention, as in a "being" (satta).
Note that in the second part of the verse, casting off the burden is associated with "pulling up craving", which suggests the burden is craving, rather than the aggregates themselves.
Spiny, see my response above. I though I had quoted you. Clearly I’m not getting enough sleep. :zzz:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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SDC
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Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."

Post by SDC »

justpractice wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:54 pm
SDC wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:38 pm We are straying a bit, but just want to correct my hasty posting from earlier. While I’m glad you enjoyed MN 75, I meant to point to the simile of the man being shot by the arrow in MN 63 as something that came close to what I was trying to describe. :embarassed:
Thanks for clarifying! The content of MN 63 is much more aligned with what was being discussed. :jumping:
And you were so polite about it! :D
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."

Post by Spiny Norman »

SDC wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:32 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:41 am I think "person" here (ayam) is being used in the sense of a convention, as in a "being" (satta).
Note that in the second part of the verse, casting off the burden is associated with "pulling up craving", which suggests the burden is craving, rather than the aggregates themselves.
Spiny, see my response above. I though I had quoted you. Clearly I’m not getting enough sleep. :zzz:
No worries. The argument that there is a person distinct from the aggregates is interesting, but the suttas seem to say that the person is made up from the aggregates - not that the person has aggregates.
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Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."

Post by Spiny Norman »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:47 pm I think it means that if you pick the aggregates up, you will find that you have become a person.
Yes, and that's supported by SN23.2, where one becomes a being by getting "caught up" in craving and delight.
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Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."

Post by Spiny Norman »

If there were a person separate from the aggregates, it would be reminiscent of the Upanishadic idea of the Atman surrounded by sheaths (koshas).
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Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

There are some interesting issues raised as a collorary of this verse, which Thanissaro mentions in his notes.
Thanissaro Bhikku wrote: "One camp refused to rank the concept of person as a truth on the ultimate level. This group inspired what eventually became the classic Theravāda position on this issue: that the “person” was simply a conventional designation for the five aggregates.
However, the other camp—who developed into the Pudgalavādin (Personalist) school—said that the person was neither an ultimate truth nor a mere conventional designation, neither identical with nor totally separate from the five aggregates.

This special meaning of person, they said, was required to account for three things
:
the cohesion of a person’s identity in this lifetime (one person’s memories, for instance, cannot become another person’s memories); the unitary nature of rebirth (one person cannot be reborn in several places at once); and the fact that, with the cessation of the khandhas at the death of an arahant, he/she is said to attain the Further Shore. However, after that moment, they said, nothing further could be said about the person, for that was as far as the concept’s descriptive powers could go."
So how are these issues clarified or not depending on how the term 'person' is taken?
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."

Post by SDC »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:04 am
SDC wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:32 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:41 am I think "person" here (ayam) is being used in the sense of a convention, as in a "being" (satta).
Note that in the second part of the verse, casting off the burden is associated with "pulling up craving", which suggests the burden is craving, rather than the aggregates themselves.
Spiny, see my response above. I though I had quoted you. Clearly I’m not getting enough sleep. :zzz:
No worries. The argument that there is a person distinct from the aggregates is interesting, but the suttas seem to say that the person is made up from the aggregates - not that the person has aggregates.
For sure. Didn’t intend to imply otherwise. In fact, it is the other way around. The aggregates bear the person. How far that is misunderstood depends on the view - depends on the perspective.

Based on the wide range of descriptions where puggala (individual/person) can be found in the suttas, it seems to be designating the full range of the experience, not simply just that of personhood within the experience - “experience with personhood” seems more appropriate. In terms of the inversion described in many suttas, this seems to be putting self and not-self in the correct order. It seems the Buddha was careful to emphasize this in the account of SN 22.22 (from the OP). Otherwise it would be quite simple to just say, “There is no person, therefore there is no way to distinguish between oneself and others.” The mere fact that there are aggregates; that there is a persisting body, feelings, intentions, perceptions etc., unique to a single experience, it seems safe to say there is individuality in that experience. What I mentioned earlier is that puggala is found describing both the ariya (up to arahant) and the puthujjana, so it seems safe to say that while puggala is no doubt a consequence of aggregates, it is not limited to the scope of the wrong view in regard to it. There is no reason to deny or remove that individuality: aggregates unique to a given experience. In the end, the Buddha retained a backstory that was related to the experience of being the Buddha, and until those aggregates broke apart there was relevant individuality to that experience:
AN 10.16 wrote:Bhikkhus, these ten persons [puggalā] are worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of reverential salutation, an unsurpassed field of merit for the world. What ten? The Tathāgata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One; a paccekabuddha; the one liberated in both respects; the one liberated by wisdom; the body witness; the one attained to view; the one liberated by faith; the Dhamma follower; the faith follower; and the clan member. These ten persons are worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of reverential salutation, an unsurpassed field of merit for the world.”
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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