I think “Person” refers to the conventional person or one who identifies with the carrier of that burden. In this case, it’s stating that all who carry the burden are suffering. Casting off the burden IMO would be to cast off the “Person”, meaning let go of, and not necessarily to cast off.Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 3:08 pm What is the meaning of this sutta verse? It seems to indicate the person is separate from the aggregates.
Is the person liberated thus from the re-becoming of the 5 aggregates?"A burden indeed
are the five aggregates,
and the carrier of the burden
is the person.
Taking up the burden in the world
is stressful.
Casting off the burden
is bliss.
Having cast off the heavy burden
and not taking on another,
pulling up craving,
along with its root,
one is free from hunger,
totally unbound."
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_22.html
"A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
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Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
I think "person" here (ayam) is being used in the sense of a convention, as in a "being" (satta).Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 3:08 pm What is the meaning of this sutta verse? It seems to indicate the person is separate from the aggregates.
Is the person liberated thus from the re-becoming of the 5 aggregates?"A burden indeed
are the five aggregates,
and the carrier of the burden
is the person.
Taking up the burden in the world
is stressful.
Casting off the burden
is bliss.
Having cast off the heavy burden
and not taking on another,
pulling up craving,
along with its root,
one is free from hunger,
totally unbound."
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_22.html
Note that in the second part of the verse, casting off the burden is associated with "pulling up craving", which suggests the burden is craving, rather than the aggregates themselves.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:41 am I think "person" here (ayam) is being used in the sense of a convention, as in a "being" (satta).
Note that in the second part of the verse, casting off the burden is associated with "pulling up craving", which suggests the burden is craving, rather than the aggregates themselves.
No bashing No gossiping
Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
That’s what I thought initially, but if you see my post from a page or two ago, the Pali is puggala (individual), which makes the justification for “personhood” of sakkāyadiṭṭhi a bit more tricky to show.Tl21G3lVl wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:53 pmI think “Person” refers to the conventional person or one who identifies with the carrier of that burden. In this case, it’s stating that all who carry the burden are suffering. Casting off the burden IMO would be to cast off the “Person”, meaning let go of, and not necessarily to cast off.Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 3:08 pm What is the meaning of this sutta verse? It seems to indicate the person is separate from the aggregates.
Is the person liberated thus from the re-becoming of the 5 aggregates?"A burden indeed
are the five aggregates,
and the carrier of the burden
is the person.
Taking up the burden in the world
is stressful.
Casting off the burden
is bliss.
Having cast off the heavy burden
and not taking on another,
pulling up craving,
along with its root,
one is free from hunger,
totally unbound."
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_22.html
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
and pigs fly, i mean you could come up with anything for the answer.confusedlayman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:47 pm Aggregates fooling agregates because conciousness is like magician
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Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
Thanks for clarifying! The content of MN 63 is much more aligned with what was being discussed.
"Whoever avoids sensual desires
— as he would, with his foot,
the head of a snake —
goes beyond, mindful,
this attachment in the world." - Sn 4.1
— as he would, with his foot,
the head of a snake —
goes beyond, mindful,
this attachment in the world." - Sn 4.1
Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
Hi Tl21G3lVl, I thought I was responding to Spiny Norman, the post above yours re: “satta”. I agree with what you said above.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
Spiny, see my response above. I though I had quoted you. Clearly I’m not getting enough sleep.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:41 am I think "person" here (ayam) is being used in the sense of a convention, as in a "being" (satta).
Note that in the second part of the verse, casting off the burden is associated with "pulling up craving", which suggests the burden is craving, rather than the aggregates themselves.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
And you were so polite about it!justpractice wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:54 pmThanks for clarifying! The content of MN 63 is much more aligned with what was being discussed.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
No worries. The argument that there is a person distinct from the aggregates is interesting, but the suttas seem to say that the person is made up from the aggregates - not that the person has aggregates.SDC wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:32 pmSpiny, see my response above. I though I had quoted you. Clearly I’m not getting enough sleep.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:41 am I think "person" here (ayam) is being used in the sense of a convention, as in a "being" (satta).
Note that in the second part of the verse, casting off the burden is associated with "pulling up craving", which suggests the burden is craving, rather than the aggregates themselves.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
Yes, and that's supported by SN23.2, where one becomes a being by getting "caught up" in craving and delight.
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Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
If there were a person separate from the aggregates, it would be reminiscent of the Upanishadic idea of the Atman surrounded by sheaths (koshas).
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Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
There are some interesting issues raised as a collorary of this verse, which Thanissaro mentions in his notes.
So how are these issues clarified or not depending on how the term 'person' is taken?Thanissaro Bhikku wrote: "One camp refused to rank the concept of person as a truth on the ultimate level. This group inspired what eventually became the classic Theravāda position on this issue: that the “person” was simply a conventional designation for the five aggregates.
However, the other camp—who developed into the Pudgalavādin (Personalist) school—said that the person was neither an ultimate truth nor a mere conventional designation, neither identical with nor totally separate from the five aggregates.
This special meaning of person, they said, was required to account for three things:
the cohesion of a person’s identity in this lifetime (one person’s memories, for instance, cannot become another person’s memories); the unitary nature of rebirth (one person cannot be reborn in several places at once); and the fact that, with the cessation of the khandhas at the death of an arahant, he/she is said to attain the Further Shore. However, after that moment, they said, nothing further could be said about the person, for that was as far as the concept’s descriptive powers could go."
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...
That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."
(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."
(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Re: "A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person."
For sure. Didn’t intend to imply otherwise. In fact, it is the other way around. The aggregates bear the person. How far that is misunderstood depends on the view - depends on the perspective.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:04 amNo worries. The argument that there is a person distinct from the aggregates is interesting, but the suttas seem to say that the person is made up from the aggregates - not that the person has aggregates.SDC wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:32 pmSpiny, see my response above. I though I had quoted you. Clearly I’m not getting enough sleep.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:41 am I think "person" here (ayam) is being used in the sense of a convention, as in a "being" (satta).
Note that in the second part of the verse, casting off the burden is associated with "pulling up craving", which suggests the burden is craving, rather than the aggregates themselves.
Based on the wide range of descriptions where puggala (individual/person) can be found in the suttas, it seems to be designating the full range of the experience, not simply just that of personhood within the experience - “experience with personhood” seems more appropriate. In terms of the inversion described in many suttas, this seems to be putting self and not-self in the correct order. It seems the Buddha was careful to emphasize this in the account of SN 22.22 (from the OP). Otherwise it would be quite simple to just say, “There is no person, therefore there is no way to distinguish between oneself and others.” The mere fact that there are aggregates; that there is a persisting body, feelings, intentions, perceptions etc., unique to a single experience, it seems safe to say there is individuality in that experience. What I mentioned earlier is that puggala is found describing both the ariya (up to arahant) and the puthujjana, so it seems safe to say that while puggala is no doubt a consequence of aggregates, it is not limited to the scope of the wrong view in regard to it. There is no reason to deny or remove that individuality: aggregates unique to a given experience. In the end, the Buddha retained a backstory that was related to the experience of being the Buddha, and until those aggregates broke apart there was relevant individuality to that experience:
AN 10.16 wrote:Bhikkhus, these ten persons [puggalā] are worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of reverential salutation, an unsurpassed field of merit for the world. What ten? The Tathāgata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One; a paccekabuddha; the one liberated in both respects; the one liberated by wisdom; the body witness; the one attained to view; the one liberated by faith; the Dhamma follower; the faith follower; and the clan member. These ten persons are worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of reverential salutation, an unsurpassed field of merit for the world.”
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3