Venerable Bodhi on War

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Bundokji
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Re: Venerable Bodhi on War

Post by Bundokji »

dharmacorps wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:05 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:35 am
So tell me, how is the dhamma doing in Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, previous global centres of Buddhism? Oh that's right it's basically non-existant there now.
Your views are simply naive idealism.
I said the dhamma 'as an institution' rests on powerful military states, and the above countries are living proof of this. The dhamma as personal practice rests on virtue yes. If you don't want to acknowledge this dual aspect then don't talk about it, just stick to personal practice.
The dhamma isn't an institution (?).

Unless you are attempting to equate a clerical human institution with the state, something like the Sangha's state backed status in Thailand or Burma. But that is the Sangha. The dhamma exists when people practice it, not when people have weapons to kill unbelievers for it. The are innumerable suttas which this which SDC has quoted that reject such concepts. The Buddha was not a fan of militarism and religious wars.

Most theravada sangha countries have regionally significant but not globally substantial militaries. Burma or Thailand would be toast if China, India, or Pakistan decided to attack them. Heck, Cambodia's military state killed off almost the entire sangha at one point during Khmer Rouge years. Burma is doing plenty of that too now.

Not much there either way.
One could argue how the dhamma could be perceived as a religion, and then investigate the relationship between religions and institutions. A mark of institutions is governance, where the management of the institution or state takes a hierarchical structure as a way of channeling authorit0y, determining responsibilities, dividing labor and decision making. Such a structure is believed to enable institutions to have a declared mission, and to interact with other institutions. Religion is integral to this process and arises with the evolution of societies due to certain shortcomings in formal institutions . For example, the lack of direct access to thought processes creates a vacuum to be filled by religion. The dhamma (and religions in general) focuses on the minds and intentions of individuals to ensure law abiding conduct in a way complementing institutional rules and regulations. Institutions will always have loopholes to be filled by notions of the after life, heaven and hell, kamma eventually catching up with you, laws of attraction that establishes semi-causal relationship between thoughts and physical phenomena ...etc

This is why, institutions love religion and is part of its continuum (and demise for that matter). While the individual is the subject-target of religions considering that death is experienced within his/her privacy, it leads to all sorts of collective actions such as rituals, group retreats, uniformity of the robes and shaving heads, pilgrimage, chanting and prayers. In some extreme forms, institutions attempts to hijack religion in order to present itself as all-powerful and almighty such as communism, declared secularism, humanism or scientism, all introducing alternatives based on heroism (social justice warriors) and bravery (accepting the materialistic/nihilistic version of death being at face value is presented as some kind of intellectual bravery). However, religions in its more traditional forms are still preferable to most institutions and states. It is no wonder the role the orthodox church in Russia is playing in generating support for the war, and here in Buddhism, we have the likes of Ven. Bodhi who argues along the same lines. The western version of institutional missions takes the form of new version of missionary wars to spread democracy and all the rest of it.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
bpallister
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Re: Venerable Bodhi on War

Post by bpallister »

Even if bandits were sawing off my limbs....
bpallister
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Re: Venerable Bodhi on War

Post by bpallister »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:50 pm Greetings,

I got about half of the way through the article and got bored. Maybe I'll go back to it if the conversation warrants.

The people of Ukraine, generally speaking are not Buddhists. (G'day Assaji :hello: )

Therefore what some Californian Buddhist thinks they should or should not do is as irrelevant to the situation, as what some Mufti in Afghanistan thinks I should or should not do, here in Australia.

There is no necessity or compulsion to judgement, unless one has column inches to fill in Lion's Roar or Tricycle. The Dhamma is to help you work out what you should do... not to pontificate on what non-Buddhists should do.

Metta,
Paul. :)
a New York Buddhist
bpallister
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Re: Venerable Bodhi on War

Post by bpallister »

SarathW wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:18 am I think a Buddhist monk can give general comments but not specific comments about a particular war or the parties involved.
Finding who is right and who is wrong in war is difficult.
In my opinion in a war, both parties are at fault at a given point.
Normally war stops when both parties get tired but momentum will gather again until the next war.
Many people involved in a war are not by choice but by accident as they have no other solutions.
if we adopt the Buddhist belief that there is no beginning point of ignorance/craving/aversion, then how can we determine who is right and who is wrong?
bpallister
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Re: Venerable Bodhi on War

Post by bpallister »

dharmacorps wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:00 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:55 pm Bhikkhu Bodhi is addressing some hard worldly truths and trying to reconcile them. The reason you're able to practice dhamma at all and not all speaking Arabic now and forced to worship some moon deity and his sidekick, is because of vastly superior military and the scientific revolution.
Thanissaro teaches the Dhamma in a land where the natives were genocided in the millions and basically wiped out. The world is an ugly place.
The dhamma persists because of its virtue, not because of science or military might. One day it will die out, so better to practice now than indulge in indo-aryan racial identity warrior myth baiting or whatever this is.
Cold war neo-liberalism? Not too "neo" :anjali:
SarathW
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Re: Venerable Bodhi on War

Post by SarathW »

bpallister wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:45 pm
SarathW wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:18 am I think a Buddhist monk can give general comments but not specific comments about a particular war or the parties involved.
Finding who is right and who is wrong in war is difficult.
In my opinion in a war, both parties are at fault at a given point.
Normally war stops when both parties get tired but momentum will gather again until the next war.
Many people involved in a war are not by choice but by accident as they have no other solutions.
if we adopt the Buddhist belief that there is no beginning point of ignorance/craving/aversion, then how can we determine who is right and who is wrong?
What I am saying is it is not upto the Buddhist monk to involve with the politics.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Venerable Bodhi on War

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

dharmacorps wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:05 pm The dhamma isn't an institution (?).

Unless you are attempting to equate a clerical human institution with the state, something like the Sangha's state backed status in Thailand or Burma. But that is the Sangha.
Yes clearly I was talking about the Sangha which is a human institution. And until the advent of internet and widespread printing press, the Sangha were the only purveyors of the dhamma.
Human institutions need material support, which rest on stable societies and economies which rest on stable militaries. There is nothing unusual about what I am saying.

The Dhamma goes against the worldly stream. But the Sangha live amidst the world and in dependence on them, and the worldly society rests on a military foundation. This is then the paradox.


SDC wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:18 pm
A stable foundation of the Dhamma depends on the extent that the true teaching is being uplifted and developed through the collective efforts of individuals, not on the stability of any secondary or tertiary developments that have proliferated over the centuries. In theory, five monastics practicing rightly are worth more than 1000 practicing wrongly. What worth is the Canon in the hands of those who would not uphold the heartwood when it matters most?


You think logic dictates your position? Well it absolutely does, but logic is not enough in this case, as the suttas show. This direction is already being pursued and cultivated. We are already in deep decline. You’re getting your way, so I guess you should be pleased.
Don't neglect logic. It has its place.
I really don't want to get into arguing this point. I appreciate the sutta list you posted and agree that the dhamma is upheld by those living it.

However I also don't want to be misrepresented as some kind of war monger simply for stating the plain facts and common sense.
As I said the worldy way and the dhamma way are often at odds. Yet they co-exist so perhaps it's to be expected that there is this dual and paradoxical relationship.

So I simply post these from the sutta lists you included and leave it for people to use common sense to discern their views of how this may be.
“Furthermore, the monk reminds himself of this: At present people are in harmony, on friendly terms, without quarreling, like milk mixed with water, viewing one another with eyes of affection.

The time will come, though, when there is danger and an invasion of savage tribes.


Taking power, they will surround the countryside. When there is danger, people will congregate where it is safe. There they will live packed and crowded together. When one is living packed and crowded together, it is not easy to pay attention to the Buddha’s teachings. It is not easy to reside in isolated forest or wilderness dwellings. Before this unwelcome, disagreeable, displeasing thing happens, let me first make an effort for the attaining of the as-yet-unattained, the reaching of the as-yet-unreached, the realization of the as-yet-unrealized, so that—endowed with that Dhamma—I will live in peace even when there is danger.

“This is the fourth future danger that is just enough, when considered, for a monk—heedful, ardent, and resolute—to live for the attaining of the as-yet-unattained, the reaching of the as-yet-unreached, the realization of the as-yet-unrealized."
https://suttacentral.net/an5.78/en/than ... ight=false
thediplomat-dr9k_nov4aaqut9.jpg
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
dharmacorps
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Re: Venerable Bodhi on War

Post by dharmacorps »

You've detailed your misunderstanding here quite well. You're placing the emphasis (yours, by large text and italics) in the wrong place. The point isn't the invading savages.

"I will live in peace even when there is danger." That's the point. You're saying we need the military to prevent the savages from invading. The Buddha is saying it will happen regardless, so practice the dhamma.
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