cause and effect realm

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
auto
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Re: cause and effect realm

Post by auto »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:47 am All realms are subject to kamma.
Non-action will get you heavenly form.
Non-killing will get you to see absolute-form beyond sakkaya(clinging aggregates), namely harmlessness. Having seen harmlessness, you then cultivate that to attain heavenly form.
Also,
Any kamma is akusala(demeritous) if the kamma is not known at the time of the making of said kamma. Kamma needs be known, hence kammathana(meditation).
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Re: cause and effect realm

Post by auto »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:47 pm My arguments would be based on the wrong view of Mahābrahmā. His wrong view creates demerit. If it did not create demerit, there is no reason why he would be reborn in a different plane once he dies. If there were no demerit in the rūpadhātu, the gods there would be eternally reborn there and would never fall to a plane of woe.

I'm not at a computer yet to quote extensively.
mahabrahma hasn't attained the form what would allow him to enter planet what isn't annihilated at the end of the cycle. Mahabrahama is in a vimana. Vimana is variously translated, last time i read it is an airplane(but i believe spaceship) what is stationed around the planet what directly is governed by the godhead. Vaikuṇṭha is that planet name, or realm as the quote suggests.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaikuntha wrote:In the Bhagavata, the text speaks of Vaikuntha, adorable to all the worlds (X.12.26), as the highest realm where Vishnu resides (XII.24.14). This, too, is the highest region (IV.12.26); beyond the world of darkness and samsāra (the cycle of birth and death) (IV.24.29; X.88.25);
kevatta sutta mentions what wrong with mahabrhama, he hides(from his retinues) his ignorance, about not knowing a place where mahabhutas have ceased.
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Re: cause and effect realm

Post by Coëmgenu »

auto wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:26 pmVimana is variously translated, last time i read it is an airplane(but i believe spaceship) what is stationed around the planet what directly is governed by the godhead.
Kolob? No?

:alien: :alien: :alien:

Philip Glass wrote a lovely piece for Einstein on the Beach called "Train/Spaceship."

:alien: :alien: :alien:
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User13866
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Re: cause and effect realm

Post by User13866 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:06 am
User13866 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:49 am
dhp 119; It may be well with the evil-doer as long as the evil ripens not. But when it does ripen, then the evil-doer sees (the painful results of) his evil deeds.
I take this to mean that karmavipāka can ripen immediately, later in this life, or in the next. While waiting for vipāka that has not yet ripened, the worldly fool might think he's gotten off "scot-free," as they say. Are you reading it as over more than two lives? If so, why?
I missed this q.

I think the way you interpret it is the most natural reading.

I do think that it can be applied to several lifetimes just as well.

Example is Queen Malika, a doer of good, but because of a particular misdeed she did appear in hell for 7 days before coming again in a good place.

In general i think deeds are such that some results must ripen, some ripening can be undone, some ripening can be partially mitigated and some ripening takes precedence.
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Re: cause and effect realm

Post by Coëmgenu »

User13866 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:18 pmExample is Queen Malika, a doer of good, but because of a particular misdeed she did appear in hell for 7 days before coming again in a good place.
Was the karma from before her immediate past life?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User13866
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Re: cause and effect realm

Post by User13866 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:22 pm
User13866 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:18 pmExample is Queen Malika, a doer of good, but because of a particular misdeed she did appear in hell for 7 days before coming again in a good place.
Was the karma from before her immediate past life?
I don't understand the question.
Dhp Verse 151: The much ornamented royal carriages do wear out, the body also grows old, but the Dhamma of the Virtuous does not decay. Thus, indeed, say the Virtuous among themselves.

Dhp commentary - The Story of Queen Mallika

While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (151) of this book, with reference to Mallika, queen of King Pasenadi of Kosala.

One day, Mallika went into the bathroom to wash her face, hands and feet. Her pet dog also came in; as she was bending to wash her feet, the dog tried to have sex with her, and the queen appeared to be amused and somewhat pleased. The king saw this strange incident through the window from his bedroom. When the queen came in, he said angrily to the queen, “Oh, you wicked woman! What were you doing with that dog in the bathroom? Do not deny what I saw with my own eyes.” The queen replied that she was only washing her face, her hands and her feet, and so was doing nothing wrong. Then she continued, “But, that room is very strange. If anyone went into that room, to one looking from this window there would appear to be two. If you do not believe me, O King, please go into that room and I will look through this window.”

So, the king went into the bathroom. When he came out, Mallika asked the king why he misbehaved with a she-goat in that room. The king denied it, but the queen insisted that she saw them with her own eyes. The king was puzzled, but being dim-witted, he accepted the queen’s explanation, and concluded that the bath room was, indeed, very strange.

From that time, the queen was full of remorse for having lied to the king and for having brazenly accused him of misbehaving with a she-goat. Thus, even when she was approaching death, she forgot to think about the great unrivalled charities she had shared with her husband and only remembered that she had been unfair to him. As a result of this, when she died she was reborn in niraya. After her burial, the king intended to ask the Buddha where she was reborn. The Buddha wished to spare his feelings, and also did not want him to lose faith in the Dhamma. So he willed that this question should not be put to him, and King Pasenadi forgot to ask the Buddha.

However, after seven days in niraya, the queen was reborn in the Tusita deva world. On that day, the Buddha went to King Pasenadi’s palace for alms-food; he indicated that he wished to rest in the coach-shed where the royal carriages were kept. After offering alms-food, the king asked the Buddha where queen Mallika was reborn and the Buddha replied, “Mallika has been reborn in the Tusita deva world.” Hearing this the king was very pleased, and said, ‘Where else could she have been reborn? She was always thinking of doing good deeds, always thinking what to offer to the Buddha on the next day. Venerable Sir! Now that she is gone, I, your humble disciple, hardly know what to do.” To him the Buddha said, “Look at these carriages of your father and your grandfather; these are all worn down and lying useless; so also is your body, which is subject to death and decay. Only the Dhamma of the Virtuous is not subject to decay.”
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Re: cause and effect realm

Post by Coëmgenu »

Generally speaking, the merits and demerits we build in this life go towards the next, not the one after the next. Similarly, the vipāka of demerits we experience in this life are from the most-recent past life, not from two or three or four lives ago.

In the scriptural example you posted, her demerits were from "this life" and effected her subsequent/next one.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: cause and effect realm

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Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:32 pm In the scriptural example you posted, her demerits were from "this life" and effected her subsequent/next one.
Sure, but the merit she did didn't come into effect in the immediate next, only the one after the next.

For an example where an evil deed takes many lives to ripen we can look at the cause of Maha Moggalana's violent death. As i understood, it was something he had done quite a few lives back and he wasn't aware of until he investigated the cause for him being hunted down..
Last edited by User13866 on Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: cause and effect realm

Post by Coëmgenu »

Well, she only spent a short while (a very short while, given canonical accounts of the lifespans of hell-dwellwers) there. That was the vipāka of her extensive merits, the ones she didn't bring to mind earlier, no?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: cause and effect realm

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Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:42 pm Well, she only spent a short while (a very short while, given canonical accounts of the lifespans of hell-dwellwers) there. That was the vipāka of her extensive merits, the ones she didn't bring to mind earlier, no?
I can't tell whether some of her good deeds reduced the dwelling in hell to a minimum or if the result of bad behavior was such that it couldn't last longer.
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Re: cause and effect realm

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Outside of the purview of the Pāli Canon, they say that Śākyamuni first began his bodhisattvayāna practice in the bowels of the Avīci hell. While being tortured by the animal-faced hell-guards, he saw his brethren suffering with him, and he desired to lessen their suffering by taking it upon himself by focusing the attention of the torturers upon him. This was bodhicittotpāda. From the Avīci hell, he was born amongst human beings in a fortunate aeon, and in that aeon he ordained in the monastic śrāvakasaṃgha established by old Dīpaṃkara Tathāgata.

From hell, the queen was born amongst the assembly of Maitreya Bodhisattva.

"Fairy tales" aside, we don't know what she got up to in hell.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
auto
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: cause and effect realm

Post by auto »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:54 pm Kolob? No?

:alien: :alien: :alien:

Philip Glass wrote a lovely piece for Einstein on the Beach called "Train/Spaceship."

:alien: :alien: :alien:
is this the closest thing you come up with when think of vimana?
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Re: cause and effect realm

Post by auto »

auto wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:27 pm the fate of all living entities = kamma
all works = kamma
http://thenazareneway.com/gita_chapter_%203.htm wrote:All works are being done by the Gunas (or the energy and power) of nature, but due to delusion of ego people assume themselves to be the doer. (See also 5.09, 13.29, and 14.19) (3.27)
+ visuddhimagga,
wrote:There is no doer of a deed
Or one who reaps the deed’s result;
Phenomena alone flow on—
No other view than this is right.
just learned that the kamma is not the bodily movement, a'la eating candy. Kamma is the intent what gives rise to that bodily deed.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.25/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: Ānanda, as long as there’s a body, the intention that gives rise to bodily action causes pleasure and pain to arise in oneself.
Kāye vā hānanda, sati kāyasañcetanāhetu uppajjati ajjhattaṁ sukhadukkhaṁ.
the deeds you do are the intent what gives rise to bodily(verbal..) action
https://suttacentral.net/sn3.20/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: But the deeds you do
Yañca karoti kāyena,
by body, speech, and mind—
vācāya uda cetasā.

that’s what you can call your own.
Tañhi tassa sakaṁ hoti,
That’s what you take when you go.
taṁva ādāya gacchati;
so i think when visuddhimagga says 'there is no doer of a deed', it means the body itself moves based on the intent(which gave rise to that deed). The intent is what we can call our own, which it is not but why you can(call your own) is that it becomes a base for next life.

deeds you do = kamma
gives rise to bodily action = kamma with sakkaya?
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Re: cause and effect realm

Post by auto »

continuing previous post,
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.25/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:But when ignorance fades away and ceases with nothing left over, there is no body and no voice and no mind, conditioned by which that pleasure and pain arise in oneself.
Avijjāya tveva, ānanda, asesavirāganirodhā so kāyo na hoti yaṁpaccayāssa taṁ uppajjati ajjhattaṁ sukhadukkhaṁ. Sā vācā na hoti yaṁpaccayāssa taṁ uppajjati ajjhattaṁ sukhadukkhaṁ. So mano na hoti yaṁpaccayāssa taṁ uppajjati ajjhattaṁ sukhadukkhaṁ.
no body, no voice.. i think these are sankharas what are meant as absent .
Which in case of a body is breath. Because it is tied to the body. Mn44.

Therefore the sancetana could be the breath what gives rise to bodily action. And what we can call as our own?

hmm
http://thenazareneway.com/gita_chapter_5.htm wrote:Renouncing sense enjoyments; fixing the eyes and mind at the midbrows; equalizing the breath moving through the nostrils (by Kriya techniques); (See also 4.29, 6.13 and 8.10) (5.27)
what kiriya is in abhidhamma, and i don't know whether there is connection between the word kriya.
Narada Maha Thera wrote:The fourth type of
consciousness is called Kiriya which, for want of a better
term, is rendered by “karmically ineffective”, “inoperative”
or “functional”.

Here Kiriya is used in the sense of ineffective action.
Kamma is causally effective. Kiriya is causally ineffective.
Good deeds of Buddhas and Arahants are called Kiriya
because Kamma is not accumulated by them as they have
gone beyond both good and evil.

In Abhidhamma Vipàka and Kiriya are collectively
called Abyàkata (Indeterminate) that which does not man-
ifest itself in the way of an effect. The former is Abyàkata,
because it is an effect in itself, the latter, because it does
not produce an effect.
seems it is the same word,
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/k/kiriya/ wrote:PTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

Kiriya,Kiriyā & Kriyā [abstr.fr.karoti] 1.(n.) -- (a) (-°) action,performance,deed; the doing=fulfilment; cp.°karaṇa,anta°,making an end of,putting a stop to (dukkhassa)
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