Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Tl21G3lVl
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Tl21G3lVl »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:14 pm Do unicorns get born, age and die?
Think of all the stories and storybooks that were buried and lost in time, or washed to sea.
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analysis
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by analysis »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:40 pm What about the concept of "red"?
Concepts are 6-fold.
  • Vijjamana Pannatti : Concepts about Real (eg: red, mind)
  • Avijjamana Pannatti : Concepts about Non-real (eg: unicorn)
  • Vijjamanena Vijjamana Pannatti : 'Concepts about Real" by 'Concepts about Real" (eg: eye-consciousness)
  • Vijjamanena Avijjamana Pannatti : 'Concepts about Non-real" by 'Concepts about Real" (eg: blue-shirt)
  • Avijjamanena Vijjamana Pannatti : 'Concepts about Real" by 'Concepts about Non-real" (eg: mango-smell)
  • Avijjamanena Avijjamana Pannatti : 'Concepts about Non-real" by 'Concepts about Non-real" (eg: sissy-boy)
Goofaholix wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:47 pm What's causes a concept... thought.
What causes thought... mind.

Mind experiences anicca, dukkha, anatta.

Your statement only makes sense if concepts can arise in a vacuum, I'm pretty sure they don't.
Conceptualizing is real. Conceptualizing is anicca, dukkha, anatta.

What "Conceptualizing" points to, is the Concept. It is a fake object that "Conceptualizing" points to.

The pointer exists, but "what is pointed" doesn't exist.

So Concepts are not considered as anicca or dukkha.
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Goofaholix
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Goofaholix »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:14 pm Do unicorns get born, age and die?
No, and this is my point, the mind that creates and maintains unicorns gets born, ages and dies.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Goofaholix wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:37 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:14 pm Do unicorns get born, age and die?
No, and this is my point, the mind that creates and maintains unicorns gets born, ages and dies.
The mind creates unicorns?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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AlexBrains92
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:34 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:51 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:48 pm

That is a concept of the real.
In what sense red would be ultimately real?
It’s a natural phenomenon. The concept has a referent. How is it just a concept?
I've never written "just a concept", since I'm not denying what is beyond concepts. You didn't really answer my question, or you think "natural phenomenon" necessarily implies ultimate reality? If yes, why you think that? And, in any case, why you think a concept "has a referent" as it was a reflection in a mirror? The abhidhammical "dhamma theory" seems quite similiar to Lenin's theory of reflection :D Anyway, red doesn't exist as such, but it's relative like everything else. One of my best friends doesn't see red, most of the animals don't see red. There's no red in their world, there's no red for bacteria, there's no red for rocks... "Yeah, but the wavelength and the frequency of red [oh! now red, that was one thing, become two things or maybe even more :D ] exist independently from perceivers". Do they? Aren't they rather units of measurement, that is relative to human perception (see quantum mechanics)?
Last edited by AlexBrains92 on Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


- Snp 4.5 -
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Goofaholix
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Goofaholix »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:51 pm The mind creates unicorns?
The mind creates the concept; "unicorn".
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Goofaholix wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:55 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:51 pm The mind creates unicorns?
The mind creates the concept; "unicorn".
Indeed, and that concept creation is real. The concept though is not, and so does not arise nor cease.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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AlexBrains92
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by AlexBrains92 »

analysis wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:29 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:40 pm What about the concept of "red"?
Concepts are 6-fold.
  • Vijjamana Pannatti : Concepts about Real (eg: red, mind)
  • Avijjamana Pannatti : Concepts about Non-real (eg: unicorn)
  • Vijjamanena Vijjamana Pannatti : 'Concepts about Real" by 'Concepts about Real" (eg: eye-consciousness)
  • Vijjamanena Avijjamana Pannatti : 'Concepts about Non-real" by 'Concepts about Real" (eg: blue-shirt)
  • Avijjamanena Vijjamana Pannatti : 'Concepts about Real" by 'Concepts about Non-real" (eg: mango-smell)
  • Avijjamanena Avijjamana Pannatti : 'Concepts about Non-real" by 'Concepts about Non-real" (eg: sissy-boy)
"Real" is OK, conventionally.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


- Snp 4.5 -
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Goofaholix
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Goofaholix »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:59 pm Indeed, and that concept creation is real. The concept though is not, and so does not arise nor cease.
Hence my statement the op statement "only makes sense if concepts can arise in a vacuum, I'm pretty sure they don't."
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Tl21G3lVl
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Tl21G3lVl »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:59 pm Indeed, and that concept creation is real. The concept though is not, and so does not arise nor cease.
Isn’t concept a phenomena of the mind?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Tl21G3lVl wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:06 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:59 pm Indeed, and that concept creation is real. The concept though is not, and so does not arise nor cease.
Isn’t concept a phenomena of the mind?
Well you form the concept “unicorn” and are aware of it, but the unicorn doesn’t arise and cease. A lot of traditional samatha Theravadin meditation relies on concepts. The nimittas for example. They are formed by the mind, but it’s not real. The earth kasina isn’t really real. Everything isn’t the earth element. It’s just a concept. Vipassana and vipassana Jhanas don’t. That way relies upon the real.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:54 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:34 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:51 pm
In what sense red would be ultimately real?
It’s a natural phenomenon. The concept has a referent. How is it just a concept?
I've never written "just a concept", since I'm not denying what is beyond concepts. You didn't really answer my question, or you think "natural phenomenon" necessarily implies ultimate reality? If yes, why you think that? And, in any case, why you think a concept "has a referent" as it was a reflection in a mirror? The abhidhammical "dhamma theory" seems quite similiar to Lenin's theory of reflection :D Anyway, red doesn't exist as such, but it's relative like everything else. One of my best friends doesn't see red, most of the animals don't see red. There's no red in their world, there's no red for bacteria, there's no red for rocks... "Yeah, but the wavelength and the frequency of red [oh! now red, that was one thing, become two things or maybe even more :D ] exist independently from perceivers". Do they? Aren't they rather units of measurement, that is relative to human perception (see quantum mechanics)?
Right now you and I are sharing concepts. Those concepts have a common external source. If there were no referent and everything is conventional, how is it we both share the same conventions? If everything was conventional, nothing would make sense.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Goofaholix
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Goofaholix »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:09 pm They are formed by the mind, but it’s not real. The earth kasina isn’t really real. Vipassana and vipassana Jhanas don’t. That way relies upon the real.
I think its a nonsense to discuss whether something "exists", or whether something is "real", I think the Buddha said as much.

If we all agree on a concept like "United States of America" and agree to abide by it then its real to the extent our agreement on that concept influences our lives. I can say I don't recognise the "United States of America" as the concept is made up by the human mind but if I want to pass through immigration I have no choice but to conform to the agreed rules around the concept.

The same was true of the concept "the Roman Empire" 2000 years ago but we no longer have to abide by its rules, we still understand the concept though but it has changed in terms of how it can influence our lives.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Goofaholix wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:19 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:09 pm They are formed by the mind, but it’s not real. The earth kasina isn’t really real. Vipassana and vipassana Jhanas don’t. That way relies upon the real.
I think its a nonsense to discuss whether something "exists", or whether something is "real", I think the Buddha said as much.

If we all agree on a concept like "United States of America" and agree to abide by it then its real to the extent our agreement on that concept influences our lives. I can say I don't recognise the "United States of America" as the concept is made up by the human mind but if I want to pass through immigration I have no choice but to conform to the agreed rules around the concept.

The same was true of the concept "the Roman Empire" 2000 years ago but we no longer have to abide by its rules, we still understand the concept though but it has changed in terms of how it can influence our lives.
The Buddha said some thing are real and others are not. That some things exist and others do not. We have to make use of the self concept in the everyday, but ultimately it is not.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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AlexBrains92
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:16 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:54 pm I've never written "just a concept", since I'm not denying what is beyond concepts. You didn't really answer my question, or you think "natural phenomenon" necessarily implies ultimate reality? If yes, why you think that? And, in any case, why you think a concept "has a referent" as it was a reflection in a mirror? The abhidhammical "dhamma theory" seems quite similiar to Lenin's theory of reflection :D Anyway, red doesn't exist as such, but it's relative like everything else. One of my best friends doesn't see red, most of the animals don't see red. There's no red in their world, there's no red for bacteria, there's no red for rocks... "Yeah, but the wavelength and the frequency of red [oh! now red, that was one thing, become two things or maybe even more :D ] exist independently from perceivers". Do they? Aren't they rather units of measurement, that is relative to human perception (see quantum mechanics)?
Right now you and I are sharing concepts. Those concepts have a common external source. If there were no referent and everything is conventional, how is it we both share the same conventions?
See intersubjectivity.
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:16 pm If everything was conventional, nothing would make sense.
Conventions are pragmatically useful.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


- Snp 4.5 -
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