Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

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Eko Care
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Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Eko Care »

Tl21G3lVl wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:09 pm
NotMe wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:01 pm
Tl21G3lVl wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:55 pm Conventional reality is dukkha. With the N8FP we can reach the non conventional.
Yes!
Conventional reality is all 3 marks, tho. No?
Perhaps both, but we shouldn't lose focus once a shore is sighted right?
Conventional reality (sammuti sacca/ pannatti) is just a concept and not real.
Non-real dhammas don't exist and therefore cannot be anicca or dukkha.

According to Abhdhamma:

dhamma = paramata + pannatti
paramata = sankhata + asankhata
sankhata = citta + cetasika + rupa
asnkhata = nibbana
dhamma = citta + cetasika + rupa + nibbana + pannatti

All the dhammas are anatta.
Anatta means devoid of essence/self/ownership/hegemony.

Only the sankhata (compounded) is anicca-dukkha.
Nibbana and Pannatti are anatta only.

Nibbana is real but not compounded. Therefore not anicca-dukkha.
Pannatti is non-real. Therefore not anicca-dukkha.
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by cappuccino »

Over thinking, whereas you need to simplify
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Ceisiwr »

In a sense this is right. Unicorns for example do not get born and do not die, because they do not exist. They are purely conceptual. That is one angle to look at it. From another angle, we do form concepts and so concept formation of a unicorn does arise and cease. The body does arise and cease. There is a concept of a body, and there is the reality of the body to which it relates.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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cappuccino
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by cappuccino »

Leave unicorns out of this
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:10 pm Leave unicorns out of this
Cappuccino, mighty defender of unicorns! :tongue:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:11 pm Cappuccino, mighty defender of unicorns!
I’m against their presence
SarathW
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by SarathW »

Perhaps this topic may help too.

viewtopic.php?t=16264
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Alrac
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Alrac »

Eko Care wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:07 pm Conventional reality (sammuti sacca/ pannatti) is just a concept and not real.
Non-real dhammas don't exist and therefore cannot be anicca or dukkha.

According to Abhdhamma:
I read a sutta with the number SN 22.81. It says:
Here, bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling, who is not a seer of the noble ones and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, who is not a seer of superior persons and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, regards form as self. That regarding, bhikkhus, is a formation. That formation—what is its source, what is its origin, from what is it born and produced? When the uninstructed worldling is contacted by a feeling born of ignorance-contact, craving arises: thence that formation is born. Thus, bhikkhus, that formation is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.81/en/bod ... ight=false
This sutta sounds like it has a view about unreal concepts this is the opposite to your theory. This sutta says the concept of 'self' is impermanent. What is your opinion about this? Is your theory right & is the sutta wrong? Or is the sutta right & is your theory wrong? Who is right? You or the Buddha? :shrug:
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by pegembara »

Concepts are things that only exist in our minds, in our thoughts.

Money can be burned.
Houses can be destroyed.
Countries can be conquered.
Family can be broken up.

Are they permanent or not?

But zero is always a zero. 1+1=2.
Space, nothingness, and consciousness are also concepts.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Tl21G3lVl »

Concepts exist for as long as they can be conceptualized. Like a movie that’s projected on the screen is not real, but the screen and projector are both subject to change, and therefore makes the movie subject to anicca, and dukkha.
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by asahi »

Oh no ! Concept is an abstract idea . An idea is a mental impression . Therefore , an idea does exist as an sankhara which belongs to part of the five aggregates .
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Ceisiwr »

asahi wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:04 am Oh no ! Concept is an abstract idea . An idea is a mental impression . Therefore , an idea does exist as an sankhara which belongs to part of the five aggregates .
This is why I said it depends how you look at it. From one angle, arising and ceasing do not apply to pure concepts. Vampires for example do not arise and cease.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Spiny Norman »

asahi wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:04 am Oh no ! Concept is an abstract idea . An idea is a mental impression . Therefore , an idea does exist as an sankhara which belongs to part of the five aggregates .
Yes, and ideas are based on thoughts, which are continually rising and ceasing.
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:31 am
asahi wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:04 am Oh no ! Concept is an abstract idea . An idea is a mental impression . Therefore , an idea does exist as an sankhara which belongs to part of the five aggregates .
This is why I said it depends how you look at it. From one angle, arising and ceasing do not apply to pure concepts. Vampires for example do not arise and cease.
What do you mean by "pure concepts" here? Ideas or beliefs that don't correspond to the real world?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:11 pm
cappuccino wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:10 pm Leave unicorns out of this
Cappuccino, mighty defender of unicorns! :tongue:
:clap:
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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