Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Goofaholix
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Goofaholix »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:20 pm What I’m trying to say is that Buddhas do not arise nor cease.
This thread is about concepts though, the concept "Buddha" arose when a philosopher speculated awakening was possible and gave such a state a name. The historical Buddha (not a concept so not relevant to this thread) arose when Gautama Siddhartha experienced full awakening and claimed the title "the Buddha".
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Goofaholix wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:30 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:20 pm What I’m trying to say is that Buddhas do not arise nor cease.
This thread is about concepts though, the concept "Buddha" arose when a philosopher speculated awakening was possible and gave such a state a name. The historical Buddha (not a concept so not relevant to this thread) arose when Gautama Siddhartha experienced full awakening and claimed the title "the Buddha".
The Buddha is a concept. A concept formation arose, yes. It’s also likely that “Buddha” as a concept predated him (and I don’t mean the Buddhist former Buddhas).
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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AlexBrains92
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:23 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:06 pm
Intersubjectivity is not objectivity, and we have no reason to believe that the former was a reflection of the latter.
The whole theory requires the existence of external minds, and minds according to Theravada are real.

Again: I'm not denying what is beyond concepts. I'm just saying that concepts don't reflect "ultimately real things", because what you call "the referent" is still arbitrarily delimited in time and space... by us, of course. Only silence could describe an ultimate reality.
If there weren’t real things we couldn’t be having this conversation.
Despite my clarifications, evidently you're not seeing my point. Nevermind.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


- Snp 4.5 -
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Goofaholix
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Goofaholix »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:37 pm A concept formation arose, yes.
Sounds like a reasonable description of "the teaching". Going back to the OP though I think it's a nonsense to speculate on whether "the teaching" is real/exists just because it is conceptual in nature.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Goofaholix wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:40 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:37 pm A concept formation arose, yes.
Sounds like a reasonable description of "the teaching". Going back to the OP though I think it's a nonsense to speculate on whether "the teaching" is real/exists just because it is conceptual in nature.
In terms of Dhamma it’s not just a teaching. Rather it’s something discovered. Natural law and phenomenon/events.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:38 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:23 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:06 pm
Intersubjectivity is not objectivity, and we have no reason to believe that the former was a reflection of the latter.
The whole theory requires the existence of external minds, and minds according to Theravada are real.

Again: I'm not denying what is beyond concepts. I'm just saying that concepts don't reflect "ultimately real things", because what you call "the referent" is still arbitrarily delimited in time and space... by us, of course. Only silence could describe an ultimate reality.
If there weren’t real things we couldn’t be having this conversation.
Despite my clarifications, evidently you're not seeing my point. Nevermind.
It made little sense, no.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Goofaholix
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Goofaholix »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:44 pm In terms of Dhamma it’s not just a teaching. Rather it’s something discovered. Natural law and phenomenon/events.
Yes, there is definately an underlying non-conceptual natural law basis for it. I think this is stronger in the Buddhas teaching than other religious philospohies.

Concepts in general usually have some underlying basis, your unicorn is made up of a horse and a horn for example.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Goofaholix wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:02 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:44 pm In terms of Dhamma it’s not just a teaching. Rather it’s something discovered. Natural law and phenomenon/events.
Yes, there is definately an underlying non-conceptual natural law basis for it. I think this is stronger in the Buddhas teaching than other religious philospohies.

Concepts in general usually have some underlying basis, your unicorn is made up of a horse and a horn for example.
Sure, and Buddha from being awake. The cognition of the concept of a unicorn however is empty of a real referent.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Goofaholix
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Goofaholix »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:07 pm Sure, and Buddha from being awake. The cognition of the concept of a unicorn however is empty of a real referent.
indeed
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
User13866
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by User13866 »

That in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver of the world—this is called the world in the Noble One’s Discipline. 
The ear … The nose … The tongue … The body … The mind is that in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver of the world. That in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver of the world—this is called the world in the Noble One’s Discipline.
How about that...

This is what should be memorized and drawn from.

A lot of what being discussed here is trying to pin down the difference between truth & not truth.

This is like comparing a map to the territory. A perceived map is a truth & reality which can be representative of the territory or inapplicable to describing the truth & reality of the territory.

Either way both the territory and the map are conceived & perceived, and they are included in the Allness of the All, hence subject to disintegration.
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
Last edited by User13866 on Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:55 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:07 pm
Goofaholix wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:02 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:44 pm In terms of Dhamma it’s not just a teaching. Rather it’s something discovered. Natural law and phenomenon/events.
Yes, there is definately an underlying non-conceptual natural law basis for it. I think this is stronger in the Buddhas teaching than other religious philospohies.

Concepts in general usually have some underlying basis, your unicorn is made up of a horse and a horn for example.
Sure, and Buddha from being awake. The cognition of the concept of a unicorn however is empty of a real referent.
But the concept of a unicorn is still subject to the three marks, right?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:48 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:07 pm
Goofaholix wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:02 pm

Yes, there is definately an underlying non-conceptual natural law basis for it. I think this is stronger in the Buddhas teaching than other religious philospohies.

Concepts in general usually have some underlying basis, your unicorn is made up of a horse and a horn for example.
Sure, and Buddha from being awake. The cognition of the concept of a unicorn however is empty of a real referent.
But the concept of a unicorn is still subject to the three marks, right?
Well think of it this way. If the concept of a unicorn is unreal, how can it arise and cease? A unicorn is just a concept. It doesn’t get born nor die.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:46 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:48 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:07 pm

Sure, and Buddha from being awake. The cognition of the concept of a unicorn however is empty of a real referent.
But the concept of a unicorn is still subject to the three marks, right?
Well think of it this way. If the concept of a unicorn is unreal, how can it arise and cease? A unicorn is just a concept. It doesn’t get born nor die.
But the thought of unicorns does arise and cease, like while reading and replying to this discussion about unicorns.

I don't agree that the idea or thought of unicorns is "unreal", by the way.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:54 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:46 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:48 am

But the concept of a unicorn is still subject to the three marks, right?
Well think of it this way. If the concept of a unicorn is unreal, how can it arise and cease? A unicorn is just a concept. It doesn’t get born nor die.
But the thought of unicorns does arise and cease, like while reading and replying to this discussion about unicorns.

I don't agree that the idea or thought of unicorns is "unreal", by the way.
We certainly form the concept “a unicorn” and we certainly become aware of it. The concept formation and awareness arises and ceases and is real, but the concept itself is not real. Not being real it can’t arise and cease.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Concepts don't exist and therefore cannot be Anicca or Dukkha.

Post by Tl21G3lVl »

:namaste: For the record, I agree that what is unreal is not subject to anicca and dukkha. I was mistakenly trying to defend the statement I made when actually to defend it was to agree. Originally I should have said to get caught up in conventions and trying to make it into a reality is dukkha. I hope that sounds more agreeable.

:namaste:
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