Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Radix
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by Radix »

DNS wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:47 pm There are some self-awareness tests, one of the most simple ones is the mirror test. If the animal looks into the mirror and recognizes an animal there and especially if they recognize it is them, then they have self-awareness. Higher primates and dolphins and some other animals have 'passed' this test.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness
By this logic, humans who have been blind from birth have no self-awareness.
The MSR test may be of limited value when applied to species that primarily use senses other than vision.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test#Criticism
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Radix
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by Radix »

SarathW wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:09 pm
SteRo wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:52 pm
SarathW wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:21 am Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?
I am mainly concerned about self-view. (or wrong views)
I suggest you interview the animals you are interested in.
This is a silly answer.
On the contrary.

When other people say that you are such and such, do you just accept those claims as true about yourself?

Who has the authority to define who you really are?
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by DNS »

Radix wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:24 pm By this logic, humans who have been blind from birth have no self-awareness.
The MSR test may be of limited value when applied to species that primarily use senses other than vision.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test#Criticism
There are other tests scientists have been developing, including the use of other senses, including smell and hearing. The mirror test is just one of the tests, not the only one.
dhammapal
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by dhammapal »

Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:
With animals in the home: When dogs do something they know is wrong, part of them knows that they had the choice not to do it wrong, but they did it anyhow. And so they feel very guilty. Even though their powers of self-reflection and self-observation are pretty impaired compared to ours, still they have some ability to observe themselves and to know that they’re making choices.

From: Even Common Animals Can Be Trained by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
Bundokji
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by Bundokji »

Animal behavior indicates the "mine" more than i, me and myself. Mammals are protective of their offspring for example. Animals are territorial as well, and fight over females during the mating season. Hierarchical structures and ranking systems also exist among animals, which is integral to herd instinct and collective behavior.

The conceptualizing of the "mine" into an I, me and myself made humans believe that they have certain autonomy that is unique to them. This autonomy translates into moral behavior that the instructed human is held accountable for. The mirror test, or reflexive thinking in general, is the basis for moral accountability. For example, babies are very instinctive before recognizing themselves in the mirror, but once they acquire this ability, they begin to be reasonably punished when doing something wrong. This ability is associated with understanding shadows or causality or name and form which helps shape the human relationship in time and space. If the shadow in the mirror reflects a real thing, then names and language correspond to reality.. All one has to do is to follow the shadow to arrive at the real thing. This manifests itself through using verbal communications among the human specie to give direction to a certain point (through sharing the shadow version of the real thing). This also expresses itself through death anxiety that differs from the instinctive reaction upon encountering a physical threat. In terms of rituals, it expresses itself as an art such as painting a shadow of some naturalistic theme, or engraving a statue, or music through organizing melodies to convey symmetry and harmony, or simply putting some flowers on the dinner table along with candles where the act of eating appears to be more than the mere input of calories.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by thepea »

DNS wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:20 pm
Radix wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:24 pm By this logic, humans who have been blind from birth have no self-awareness.
The MSR test may be of limited value when applied to species that primarily use senses other than vision.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test#Criticism
There are other tests scientists have been developing, including the use of other senses, including smell and hearing. The mirror test is just one of the tests, not the only one.
Does a fish have self awareness?
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by cappuccino »

thepea wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:46 am Does a fish have self awareness?
They have awareness
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by thepea »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:52 am
thepea wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:46 am Does a fish have self awareness?
They have awareness
But awareness of self, like we do?
Or awareness of environment like food/other fish?
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by cappuccino »

thepea wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:58 am But awareness of self, like we do?
what you think is self is not self


add more confusion for animals
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by thepea »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:03 am
thepea wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:58 am But awareness of self, like we do?
what you think is self is not self


add more confusion for animals
Do they fear death?
Or just reactionary?
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by cappuccino »

thepea wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:16 am Do they fear death?
Or just reactionary?
They do not ask this question
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by thepea »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:30 am
thepea wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:16 am Do they fear death?
Or just reactionary?
They do not ask this question
Through your observation.

I can drop a hook and they will one after another go for the bait when feeding time. Then like a switch it’s over they stop feeding. They respond to tidal current in the river. I doesn’t seem they are thinking but rather responding to stimuli.
My pigs on the other hand will come when called, they communicate their wants to you. They can be afraid of sounds(thunder). They push on the gate to get it to open, they are thinking. I do not have any thoughts of harming my boys.
Chickens and other foul seem to be like fish.
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by cappuccino »

thepea wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:45 am Through your observation.
The animal realm is a lower realm


The ghost realm is better
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by thepea »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:54 am
thepea wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:45 am Through your observation.
The animal realm is a lower realm


The ghost realm is better
Animals do not have awareness of awareness and few humans have this.
Most Humans have the capacity for this but few experience this.
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by cappuccino »

thepea wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:00 am Animals do not have awareness of awareness and few humans have this.
Most Humans have the capacity for this but few experience this.
Pure awareness is very positive
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