Is it?
Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?
I think fish are only aware of their environment, whereas higher mammals develop an awareness of themselves too.
And I assume there is a close relationship between awareness and intelligence.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?
Some evolutionary theorists as well as religious minded people (creationists) link the moral accountability of humans to the upright posture while walking. Even in the everyday language, the term upright is associated with proper conduct. I am not sure if this unique posture translates into more exposure in proportion to its size.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
This was the last word of the Tathagata.
This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?
I agree with this based on my interactions and observations with animals.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:21 amI think fish are only aware of their environment, whereas higher mammals develop an awareness of themselves too.
And I assume there is a close relationship between awareness and intelligence.
I really don’t see fish as fearing for their life. Especially with the fighting up river to spawn. Majority die after this.
Self sacrifice seems an overreach but muscle memory and instinct/following the school.
Chickens seem to have little self awareness.
With pigs they too are instinct based behaviour but I have witnessed one of our pigs sharing things with others. And they both show signs of genuine happiness at times.
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?
It was noticed that days before a tsunami animals and serpents move inland to safer places . This is by sensing the danger for existence. At the same time I had noticed that when oxen are taken to be killed they behave in a sad manner with tears in their eyes. Birds every year fly seasonally to the same destinations. How can we explain these.thepea wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:46 amI agree with this based on my interactions and observations with animals.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:21 amI think fish are only aware of their environment, whereas higher mammals develop an awareness of themselves too.
And I assume there is a close relationship between awareness and intelligence.
I really don’t see fish as fearing for their life. Especially with the fighting up river to spawn. Majority die after this.
Self sacrifice seems an overreach but muscle memory and instinct/following the school.
Chickens seem to have little self awareness.
With pigs they too are instinct based behaviour but I have witnessed one of our pigs sharing things with others. And they both show signs of genuine happiness at times.
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?
Millions of years of evolution is a possible explanation, but I agree that these creatures can do remarkable things.justindesilva wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:26 pmIt was noticed that days before a tsunami animals and serpents move inland to safer places . This is by sensing the danger for existence. At the same time I had noticed that when oxen are taken to be killed they behave in a sad manner with tears in their eyes. Birds every year fly seasonally to the same destinations. How can we explain these.thepea wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:46 amI agree with this based on my interactions and observations with animals.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:21 am
I think fish are only aware of their environment, whereas higher mammals develop an awareness of themselves too.
And I assume there is a close relationship between awareness and intelligence.
I really don’t see fish as fearing for their life. Especially with the fighting up river to spawn. Majority die after this.
Self sacrifice seems an overreach but muscle memory and instinct/following the school.
Chickens seem to have little self awareness.
With pigs they too are instinct based behaviour but I have witnessed one of our pigs sharing things with others. And they both show signs of genuine happiness at times.
I watch cormorants dive to catch fish in water with zero visibility, and marvel at their skill.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?
I agree with spiney that it’s years and years of evolution, just like humans have evolved.justindesilva wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:26 pmIt was noticed that days before a tsunami animals and serpents move inland to safer places . This is by sensing the danger for existence. At the same time I had noticed that when oxen are taken to be killed they behave in a sad manner with tears in their eyes. Birds every year fly seasonally to the same destinations. How can we explain these.thepea wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:46 amI agree with this based on my interactions and observations with animals.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:21 am
I think fish are only aware of their environment, whereas higher mammals develop an awareness of themselves too.
And I assume there is a close relationship between awareness and intelligence.
I really don’t see fish as fearing for their life. Especially with the fighting up river to spawn. Majority die after this.
Self sacrifice seems an overreach but muscle memory and instinct/following the school.
Chickens seem to have little self awareness.
With pigs they too are instinct based behaviour but I have witnessed one of our pigs sharing things with others. And they both show signs of genuine happiness at times.
Animals are still far from a risk of destruction, but humans either must be steered towards an inner connection or run the risk of the herd destroying any who do not agree with their religion.
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?
when you don’t “agree with” this religion, it is your (great) loss
Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?
But why did it take the scientists so long to even considers this??
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
Glenn Wallis
Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?
This is how i would answer as well. Discursive thought is a matter of speech, a verbal formation.analysis wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:30 pmDear SarathW,SarathW wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:47 pmThanks.analysis wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:34 pm Venerable Malukyaputta was condemned by the Buddha, about taking Samyojanas not as Anusaya.
Otherwise babies also can be called as not having Sakkayaditthi.
I don't know how to recognize the animal's Sakkayaditthi as a pariyutthana, but they definiely have Sakkayaditthi Anusaya.
Samyojana (bonds) means latent kilesas.
Could you provide the Sutta reference for this story of Venerable Malukyaputta, please?
Please see the below.And the commentary describes more about it.MN64 Mahāmālukyaputtasutta
“Mendicants, do you remember the five lower fetters that I taught?”
When he said this, Venerable Māluṅkyaputta said to him, “Sir, I remember them.”
“But how do you remember them?”
“I remember the lower fetters taught by the Buddha as follows: identity view, doubt, misapprehension of precepts and observances, sensual desire, and ill will. That’s how I remember the five lower fetters taught by the Buddha.”
“Who on earth do you remember being taught the five lower fetters in that way? Wouldn’t the wanderers who follow other paths fault you using the simile of the infant? For a little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘identity’, so how could identity view possibly arise in them? Yet the underlying tendency to identity view still lies within them.
A being can act & react without thinking nor language.
For example if a person is driving a car where suddenly a deer jumps out in front of the car from the forest, the driver will be slamming those breaks without any discursive thought, without thinking 'a deer has appeared, i should be stopping the car'. He acts on a tendency & prior conditioning.
I imagine animals are kind of like that, not thinking too much.