Vitakka & Vicāra

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Sam Vara
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Vitakka & Vicāra

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Can anyone think of a sutta which outlines, discusses, or mentions vitakka and vicāra together, apart from the standard descriptions of the jhanas?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

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Sam Vara wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:36 am Can anyone think of a sutta which outlines, discusses, or mentions vitakka and vicāra together, apart from the standard descriptions of the jhanas?
As far as I’m aware they only appear together in the Jhana descriptions.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

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Sam Vara wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:36 am Can anyone think of a sutta which outlines, discusses, or mentions vitakka and vicāra together, apart from the standard descriptions of the jhanas?
First you place the mind and keep it connected, then you break into speech. That’s why placing the mind and keeping it connected are verbal processes.

Pubbe kho, gahapati, vitakketvā vicāretvā pacchā vācaṁ bhindati, tasmā vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro.
sn41.6
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

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User13866 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:10 am
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:36 am Can anyone think of a sutta which outlines, discusses, or mentions vitakka and vicāra together, apart from the standard descriptions of the jhanas?
First you place the mind and keep it connected, then you break into speech. That’s why placing the mind and keeping it connected are verbal processes.

Pubbe kho, gahapati, vitakketvā vicāretvā pacchā vācaṁ bhindati, tasmā vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro.
sn41.6
Ah, thank you! :anjali: The same vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro formulation as in MN 44. Much appreciated, [name redacted by admin].
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by SarathW »

User13866 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:10 am
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:36 am Can anyone think of a sutta which outlines, discusses, or mentions vitakka and vicāra together, apart from the standard descriptions of the jhanas?
First you place the mind and keep it connected, then you break into speech. That’s why placing the mind and keeping it connected are verbal processes.

Pubbe kho, gahapati, vitakketvā vicāretvā pacchā vācaṁ bhindati, tasmā vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro.
sn41.6
You find the same in MN44 as well.
Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Sam Vara »

SarathW wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:35 am
User13866 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:10 am
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:36 am Can anyone think of a sutta which outlines, discusses, or mentions vitakka and vicāra together, apart from the standard descriptions of the jhanas?
First you place the mind and keep it connected, then you break into speech. That’s why placing the mind and keeping it connected are verbal processes.

Pubbe kho, gahapati, vitakketvā vicāretvā pacchā vācaṁ bhindati, tasmā vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro.
sn41.6
You find the same in MN44 as well.
Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
You were probably still typing as I posted above! :) :anjali:
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by SarathW »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:38 am
SarathW wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:35 am
User13866 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:10 am


sn41.6
You find the same in MN44 as well.
Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
You were probably still typing as I posted above! :) :anjali:
great minds think alike (fools seldom differ)

:twothumbsup:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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SDC
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by SDC »

Hi Sam, these seem to be what you are looking for.
MN 19 wrote:Yaññadeva, bhikkhave, bhikkhu bahulamanuvitakketi anuvicāreti, tathā tathā nati hoti cetaso

Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind.
According to MN 19, this is case for both wholesome and unwholesome, so even though jhana is possible in the case of wholesome, it is not implied simply on account of thinking and pondering.

Others to consider:
AN 3.112 wrote:Atīte, bhikkhave, chandarāgaṭṭhāniye dhamme ārabbha cetasā anuvitakketi anuvicāreti

“One thinks about and mentally examines things in the past that are the basis for desire and lust.”
AN 6.51 wrote:So yathāsutaṁ yathāpariyattaṁ dhammaṁ vitthārena paresaṁ deseti, yathāsutaṁ yathāpariyattaṁ dhammaṁ vitthārena paresaṁ vāceti, yathāsutaṁ yathāpariyattaṁ dhammaṁ vitthārena sajjhāyaṁ karoti, yathāsutaṁ yathāpariyattaṁ dhammaṁ cetasā anuvitakketi anuvicāreti manasānupekkhati.

“He teaches the Dhamma to others in detail as he has heard it and learned it. He makes others repeat the Dhamma in detail as they have heard it and learned it. He recites the Dhamma in detail as he has heard it and learned it. He ponders, examines, and mentally inspects the Dhamma as he has heard it and learned it.”
Looks to be another handful more via this search.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by asahi »

I wonder if vitakka were to translate as thinking , shouldnt vicara translate as examining instead of pondering ? It appears examine and ponder are not the same .
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

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asahi wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:23 pm I wonder if vitakka were to translate as thinking , shouldnt vicara translate as examining instead of pondering ? It appears examine and ponder are not the same .
Taking a close look at MN 19/20, vitakka seems to indicate intent or the direction of thought in terms of wholesome/unwholesome; greed/hate/delusion or non greed/non hate/non delusion. And vicara seems to indicate wandering/exploring/pondering within an established extent of vitakka. Keeping in mind there is right and wrong samadhi, it is not out of the question to be established wrongly and to able to dwell in that wrong direction. Again, that is really just what those two suttas really seem to point at.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Sam Vara »

SDC wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:18 pm Hi Sam, these seem to be what you are looking for.
MN 19 wrote:Yaññadeva, bhikkhave, bhikkhu bahulamanuvitakketi anuvicāreti, tathā tathā nati hoti cetaso

Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind.
According to MN 19, this is case for both wholesome and unwholesome, so even though jhana is possible in the case of wholesome, it is not implied simply on account of thinking and pondering.

Others to consider:
AN 3.112 wrote:Atīte, bhikkhave, chandarāgaṭṭhāniye dhamme ārabbha cetasā anuvitakketi anuvicāreti

“One thinks about and mentally examines things in the past that are the basis for desire and lust.”
AN 6.51 wrote:So yathāsutaṁ yathāpariyattaṁ dhammaṁ vitthārena paresaṁ deseti, yathāsutaṁ yathāpariyattaṁ dhammaṁ vitthārena paresaṁ vāceti, yathāsutaṁ yathāpariyattaṁ dhammaṁ vitthārena sajjhāyaṁ karoti, yathāsutaṁ yathāpariyattaṁ dhammaṁ cetasā anuvitakketi anuvicāreti manasānupekkhati.

“He teaches the Dhamma to others in detail as he has heard it and learned it. He makes others repeat the Dhamma in detail as they have heard it and learned it. He recites the Dhamma in detail as he has heard it and learned it. He ponders, examines, and mentally inspects the Dhamma as he has heard it and learned it.”
Looks to be another handful more via this search.
Excellent! Thank you very much! Trouble is, once I've looked into all of these and thought about them, the thread will be cold... :D
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

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Sam Vara wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:51 pm Excellent! Thank you very much! Trouble is, once I've looked into all of these and thought about them, the thread will be cold... :D
Sounds like a wholesome establishment to me!!
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

I stand corrected.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:31 pm
asahi wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:23 pm I wonder if vitakka were to translate as thinking , shouldnt vicara translate as examining instead of pondering ? It appears examine and ponder are not the same .
Taking a close look at MN 19/20, vitakka seems to indicate intent or the direction of thought in terms of wholesome/unwholesome; greed/hate/delusion or non greed/non hate/non delusion. And vicara seems to indicate wandering/exploring/pondering within an established extent of vitakka. Keeping in mind there is right and wrong samadhi, it is not out of the question to be established wrongly and to able to dwell in that wrong direction. Again, that is really just what those two suttas really seem to point at.
According to the PTS dictionary vitakka is a synonym for saṅkappa, and so is closer to intention in meaning.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by SDC »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 4:21 pm
SDC wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:31 pm
asahi wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:23 pm I wonder if vitakka were to translate as thinking , shouldnt vicara translate as examining instead of pondering ? It appears examine and ponder are not the same .
Taking a close look at MN 19/20, vitakka seems to indicate intent or the direction of thought in terms of wholesome/unwholesome; greed/hate/delusion or non greed/non hate/non delusion. And vicara seems to indicate wandering/exploring/pondering within an established extent of vitakka. Keeping in mind there is right and wrong samadhi, it is not out of the question to be established wrongly and to able to dwell in that wrong direction. Again, that is really just what those two suttas really seem to point at.
According to the PTS dictionary vitakka is a synonym for saṅkappa, and so is closer to intention in meaning.
I recall prepping a few suttas that never materialized into a study group session where this was the theme (all the different terms for thoughts/thinking). It seems as though saṅkappa casts an even wider net than vitakka, but very much the same principle. It seems saṅkappa is the most prominent of intentions (right or wrong), but in terms of the N8FP, when developed as right would imply vitakka of a wholesome kind as perpetually available on account of it, i.e. knowing wholesome as wholesome and unwholesome as unwholesome.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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